Is Anti-Zionism antisemitism?

[I_M4_AU 8,012]

1 minute ago, AUDub said:

Need I remind you that you were responding to “involves themselves militarily?”

Iran isn’t dumb enough to do it blatantly, true, but if they did any military fortification Ls in their country would be a smoking crater within days, if not hours. 

I would hope.

[auburnatl1 5,105]

1 minute ago, AUDub said:

As I said in the other thread, it’s not so much complacency as resentment. They’re sealed in a ghetto, get bombed every so often (often killing innocent people) and die at a roughly 10:1 clip in the ongoing conflict. 

Valid. But they trained for a year in broad day light all over Gaza.  People knew. The point being the Israelis are being held accountable as a people, the Palestinians are seen as totally separate from Hamas. Completely innocent.

Both people’s needs to stopping blaming and not accepting responsibility.    

[homersapien 11,464]

33 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Fair. But in the world of bad options, having the Israelis clean up your leadership mess feels a lot worse. 

This isn’t black or white, but there is a degree of Palestinian complacency to this imo.  

Probably so,  hopefully this will shake that up.

But there certainly a lot of understandable reasons for Palestinians to resent, if not hate Israel. Like someone (you?) said, it's a vicious cycle.

Edited October 15, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,464]

23 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Valid. But they trained for a year in broad day light all over Gaza.  People knew. The point being the Israelis are being held accountable as a people, the Palestinians are seen as totally separate from Hamas. Completely innocent.

Both people’s needs to stopping blaming and not accepting responsibility.    

Haven't noticed that generally - just the opposite in fact. 

The general reaction - it seems to me - has been pro-Israeli and support for however they choose to proceed.  While that's understandable considering the actions of Hamas, it is simplistic and reactionary and ignores the historical factors that got us to this point.

And I am not suggesting who should bear most of the responsibility. In fact - as a democracy (at least so far)  - I would instinctively give credit to Israel for making more good-faith efforts toward a peaceful resolution.  But Israel has made their fair share of tactical and strategic errors IMO.

Again, it's a vicious cycle.  And even contemplating who is ultimately responsible for creating this conflict is sort of like asking the "chicken or egg" question.

Edited October 15, 2023 by homersapien

[auburnatl1 5,105]

3 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Haven't noticed that generally - just the opposite in fact. 

The general reaction - as it seems to me - has been pro-Israeli and support for however they choose to proceed.  While that's understandable considering the actions of Hamas, it is simplistic and reactionary and ignores the historical factors that got us to this point.

And I am not suggesting who bears should bear most of the responsibility. As a democracy - at least so far - I would instinctively give credit to Israel for making more good-faith efforts toward a peaceful resolution.  But they have also made their fair share of tactical and strategic errors.

Again, it's a vicious cycle.  And even contemplating who is ultimately responsible for creating this conflict is sort of like asking the "chicken or egg" question.

I keep struggling with the Hamas thinking on doing this. Assuming they’re not morons. Obviously it was their goal to create a primal, enraged Israeli response.  Maybe it was to simply continue the forever war or end the Saudi/Israel discussions. But it was too well planned and ambitious for that. I’m wondering if they wanted to force  Israel into a ground offensive, use their people as  fodder, and create  massive a body count crisis. Manipulating an opportunity to draw in other Arab factions and Iran. This hasn’t played out yet.

[homersapien 11,464]

25 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

I keep struggling with the Hamas thinking on doing this. Assuming they’re not morons. Obviously it was their goal to create a primal, enraged Israeli response.  Maybe it was to simply continue the forever war or end the Saudi/Israel discussions. But it was too well planned and ambitious for that. I’m wondering if they wanted to force  Israel into a ground offensive, use their people as  fodder, and create  massive a body count crisis. Manipulating an opportunity to draw in other Arab factions and Iran. This hasn’t played out yet.

I agree.  Frankly, it's nihilistic.

Perhaps they want to foment a "holocaust" for Palestinians to balance Israel's moral motivation/justification/instinct for Zionism??

Israel has a real dilemma with the goal of "destroying" Hamas without producing the result Hamas wants.

Edited October 15, 2023 by homersapien

[AU9377 5,055]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

Thank God for the UK, France and Germany for upholding the oil sanctions.  Too bad the US has caved on their end.  It supplies Iran with much needed capital. 

By who?  Certainly not the US as we haven’t even done anything about the 27 or so Americans killed by Hamas or the 14 or so hostages.  We have sent more ships to the area from Norfolk the other day, good on Joe.

The U.K., France and Germany maintained the original agreement and have limited trade with Iran.

[auburnatl1 5,105]

6 hours ago, homersapien said:

I agree.  Frankly, it's nihilistic.

Perhaps they want to foment a "holocaust" for Palestinians to balance Israel's moral motivation/justification/instinct for Zionism??

Israel has a real dilemma with the goal of "destroying" Hamas without producing the result Hamas wants.

Very interesting analysis.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/15/fareeds-take-israel-gaza-hamas-terrorism-netanyahu-gps-vpx.cnn

[homersapien 11,464]

11 hours ago, auburnatl1 said:

Very interesting analysis.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/15/fareeds-take-israel-gaza-hamas-terrorism-netanyahu-gps-vpx.cnn

That was a very interesting analysis.  But then - as you might expect - I've never been a fan of Netanyahu. I think his extreme right wing policies have always been counterproductive to Israel's long term interest.

Edited October 16, 2023 by homersapien

[auburnatl1 5,105]

2 hours ago, homersapien said:

That was a very interesting analysis.  But then - as you might expect - I've never been a fan of Netanyahu. I think his extreme right wing policies have always been counterproductive to Israel's long term interest.

Fareed is liberal and a smart guy. Always enjoy his takes. If people would just watch him and George Will (conservative smart guy) they’d have both sides of an argument without the insanity.

Edited October 16, 2023 by auburnatl1

[homersapien 11,464]

22 minutes ago, auburnatl1 said:

Fareed is liberal and a smart guy. Always enjoy his takes. If people would just watch him and George Will (conservative smart guy) they’d have both sides of an argument without the insanity.

I like David Brooks (conservative) also.

[AUDub 11,184]

8 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I like David Brooks (conservative) also.

See the shitstorm he kicked off recently. 

[homersapien 11,464]

7 minutes ago, AUDub said:

See the shitstorm he kicked off recently. 

Yep, he's addressed that in various venues.   

 

[AUDub 11,184]

Just now, homersapien said:

Yep, he's addressed that in various venues.   

 

If you’ve never seen that NYT Pitchbot twitter account Brooks is the walking manifestation of it. 

[TexasTiger 13,054]

25 minutes ago, AUDub said:

See the shitstorm he kicked off recently. 

About his whiskey bar tab he tried to pass off as the cost of a burger? 😉

[homersapien 11,464]

4 minutes ago, AUDub said:

If you’ve never seen that NYT Pitchbot twitter account Brooks is the walking manifestation of it. 

Nope.  Haven't seen it. (I don't do twitter)

But my opinion of him is not swayed. For example, he's very balanced in discussing the political dynamics behind the Hamas attack, especially considering he has a son in the IDF. I really enjoy his commentary segment on the PBSNH.

Edited October 16, 2023 by homersapien

[AUDub 11,184]

6 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

About his whiskey bar tab he tried to pass off as the cost of a burger? 😉

That’s the one lol. Dude needs to slow down. Little early to be packing away that volume of buckshot lol. 

[AUDub 11,184]

 

 

 

[AUDub 11,184]

Focault’s Boomerang in action. 
 

 

 

[TexasTiger 13,054]

2 hours ago, AUDub said:

Focault’s Boomerang in action. 
 

 

 

Not exactly sharing my values, dude. Iran’s, maybe.

[AUDub 11,184]

Biden is making a trip over there.  
 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/politics/joe-biden-israel-visit/index.html

[I_M4_AU 8,012]

5 minutes ago, AUDub said:

Biden is making a trip over there.  
 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/politics/joe-biden-israel-visit/index.html

Good for Joe, hope this turns out to be what the situation needs.

[DKW 86 7,451]

On 10/15/2023 at 1:52 PM, homersapien said:

I agree.  Frankly, it's nihilistic.

Perhaps they want to foment a "holocaust" for Palestinians to balance Israel's moral motivation/justification/instinct for Zionism??

Israel has a real dilemma with the goal of "destroying" Hamas without producing the result Hamas wants.

The Holocaust metaphor misses the beat tho. In the Holocaust the innocent Jews were masacred.

In this situation, Hamas is killing the Jews and now faces destruction. They truly look more and more like the Nazis at the end of WWII.

[AUDub 11,184]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

The Holocaust metaphor misses the beat tho. In the Holocaust the innocent Jews were masacred.

In this situation, Hamas is killing the Jews and now faces destruction. They truly look more and more like the Nazis at the end of WWII.

Palestinians ≠ Hamas 

[SaltyTiger 7,872]

On 10/9/2023 at 5:44 PM, TexasTiger said:

I know of your theocratic orientation, but international law is secular. 

True but amazing the number of Christians viewing this thing daily in Biblical mode. Interesting stuff if you read and listen.