NPR: Doctors in Gaza describe the war's devastating impact on health care — and civilians

[AUDub 11,149]

3 minutes ago, I_M4_AU said:

Don’t give me that.  Have Biden given them refugee status and airlift them out of there.  He can claim he had the largest humanitarian airlift since Afganastan. No need for vetting, just let the innocent on the plan like he did with Afganastan.  Of course, who gets to decide which are the innocent?

Don’t back down, write the White House now and demand it.

Even if the political will to do so was there, I doubt Israel would allow it.

No country is equipped to handle an immediate influx of 2 million people that have lived practically their entire lives in a carefully constructed ghetto, and the Likud folks know that. 

[DKW 86 7,425]

Dub, heres the answer. 

The only way you deal with people sworn to your death is to fully engage and go in and kill people and break things and hope that the killing eventually stops. Think Allies versus Nazis in WWII, defeat of Hitler type of thing. 

I am under no such delusion with Hamas. If we go in and take out Hamas tomorrow, a day later they would be voted back in by the people of Gaza.

Edited October 14, 2023 by DKW 86

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16 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Dub, heres the answer. 

The only way you deal with people sworn to your death is to fully engage and go in and kill people and break things and hope that the killing eventually stops. Think Allies versus Nazis in WWII, defeat of Hitler type of thing. 

I am under no such delusion with Hamas. If we go in and take out Hamas tomorrow, a day later they would be voted back in by the people of Gaza.

That’s the kind of answer that means this problem never goes away. 

[icanthearyou 4,463]

2 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Yes, there is a point.  Stop sending rockets into our population trying to kill us.

And they could easily say, stop imprisoning our people and, return their land to them.

Human conflict does not have to be settled by escalating violence.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

2 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

What do you want Isarel to do? Support Hamas? They are dealing daily with an organization SWORN to the death of ALL JEWS. They reject as a waste of time dealing with any negotiations. They want only the deaths of Jews. How do you deal with that. As for the prison aspect, the rest of the ME wants nothing to do with the Palestinians. NOTHING. Egypt wont even allow them to cross the border fleeing the Israeli advance. Egypt refuses to help them. They do not allow work permits, visas, passports. Nothing. They know who Hamas is and know there is only one way to deal with them. Israel and Egypt are doing the exact smae thing, excpet israel allows work permits, power, and water into Gaza. Egypt does not.

Does this mean they should be happy prisoners?  Thankful for being herded into Gaza without basic human rights?

Can you put yourself in the position of a Palestinian and, think about how you would feel?

You want to draw a neat line between right and wrong.  It's just not that simple.  Hamas does not equal Palestinian.

You want to declare one side evil.  I would say violence against others is the evil.  Justification is always rationalization.

[I_M4_AU 7,841]

4 hours ago, AUDub said:

Even if the political will to do so was there, I doubt Israel would allow it.

No country is equipped to handle an immediate influx of 2 million people that have lived practically their entire lives in a carefully constructed ghetto, and the Likud folks know that. 

Well what do you know. Who could have predicted this?

“Fifty percent of the population in Gaza are children. The international community as well as the United States should be prepared to welcome refugees from Palestine while being very careful to vet and not allow members of Hamas,” said Rep. Jamaal Bowman, a New York member of the Socialist-Democratic “Squad” who remains under investigation forpulling a fire alarm in the House Cannon Office Building earlier this month.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/14/progressives-call-for-us-to-take-refugees-from-gaza/

 

[DKW 86 7,425]

6 hours ago, AUDub said:

That’s the kind of answer that means this problem never goes away. 

It worked throughout history. 

[DKW 86 7,425]

4 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

And they could easily say, stop imprisoning our people and, return their land to them.

Human conflict does not have to be settled by escalating violence.

Okay history challenged one. What day was it when Israel took their land?

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4 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

It worked throughout history. 

We kind of have a thing about brutal campaigns that don’t differentiate between combatants and non-combatants in the 21st century.

and it’s funny you'd say this with the US escapades in Iraq and Afghanistan being really recent. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by AUDub

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“Yeah let’s go full Deuteronomy on their sorry asses” won’t fly when the Geneva convention is a thing.  

[DKW 86 7,425]

4 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Does this mean they should be happy prisoners?  Thankful for being herded into Gaza without basic human rights?

Can you put yourself in the position of a Palestinian and, think about how you would feel?

You want to draw a neat line between right and wrong.  It's just not that simple.  Hamas does not equal Palestinian.

You want to declare one side evil.  I would say violence against others is the evil.  Justification is always rationalization.

Swing and a miss. Again, there is no equivalency here. Hamas has said no peace until every Israeli dies. Israel never said that. Why is Gaza closedown? Because no one will accept Palestinian Refugees. No one in the ME wants to help them. No work permits, passports, work visas. Egypt has a border with Gaza and won’t let them escape to Egypt. You want to say this is all Israel. Hell Israel sends them water, power, work permits. Israel actually does more for Gaza than anyone in the ME. How are they rewarded? Policy is kill all the Jews, no peace, blame the Jews for every wrong. 

 

[DKW 86 7,425]

5 minutes ago, AUDub said:

We kind of have a thing about brutal campaigns that don’t differentiate between combatants and non-combatants in the 21st century.

and it’s funny you'd say this with the US escapades in Iraq and Afghanistan being really recent. 

Worked with the Nazis and Imperial Japan. 

[AUDub 11,149]

15 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

Worked with the Nazis and Imperial Japan. 

We were magnanimous in victory in both of those cases and only explicitly targeted civilians in a few unique circumstances (Dresden, the firebombing of Tokyo, and to a degree the nukes) in the face of an enemy that waged campaigns of outright eradication .

Plus those wars were far more symmetrical. There’s a reason Afghanistan is the place empires go to die. Case in point Russia with the Mujahideen, and us against the Taliban. Resistance movements reliant upon guerilla warfare are practically undefeatable. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by AUDub

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You don’t beat Hamas or whatever replaces them by force of arms. It’s the veritable hydra. Israel likes their “mowing the grass” (a term of art you should look into) but if this doesn’t shatter that notion not much will. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by AUDub

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Hamas didn’t spring up out of a vacuum. Something triggered their creation.

Sure you can obliterate Hamas, but unless you’re willing to kill millions of unoffending innocents along with them (genocide), something will rise to take their place in short order. The conditions in Gaza are ripe for it. 

[DKW 86 7,425]

15 hours ago, AUDub said:

Hamas didn’t spring up out of a vacuum. Something triggered their creation.

Sure you can obliterate Hamas, but unless you’re willing to kill millions of unoffending innocents along with them (genocide), something will rise to take their place in short order. The conditions in Gaza are ripe for it. 

We may never know. As soon as the Jews left Gaza, almost the very next thing they did was elect Hamas.

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Just now, DKW 86 said:

We may never know. As soon as the Jews left Gaza, almost the very next thing they did was elect Hamas.

The Muslim Brotherhood existed before Hamas. In fact, Hamas is a fork.

Parties like Hamas are not themselves the problem. They are the reflection of the people that support them.

[DKW 86 7,425]

7 minutes ago, AUDub said:

The Muslim Brotherhood existed before Hamas. In fact, Hamas is a fork.

Parties like Hamas are not themselves the problem. They are the reflection of the people that support them.

You do realize that you are making my point for me now?

[AUDub 11,149]

Just now, DKW 86 said:

You do realize that you are making my point for me now?

That’s my point. Organizations like Hamas are not going away if we continue with this status quo. Hamas took power and remained in power exactly because no one is willing to address the conditions that gave rise them in the first place. 

It's the veritable Hydra. 

[homersapien 11,377]

On 10/14/2023 at 1:18 PM, DKW 86 said:

And the leaflets were what?

A fig leaf.

[homersapien 11,377]

On 10/14/2023 at 1:25 PM, AUDub said:

David, standing over the corpse of a dead 5 year old child. “Sucks to be you”

The total lack of empathy is shocking. 

Especially coming from a self-identified "Christian".

[DKW 86 7,425]

5 hours ago, AUDub said:

That’s my point. Organizations like Hamas are not going away if we continue with this status quo. Hamas took power and remained in power exactly because no one is willing to address the conditions that gave rise them in the first place. 

It's the veritable Hydra. 

Wow, the disassociation here is profound. 

Hamas' one and only goal is Death to the Jews. That is all they are working for. They will not accept negotiated peace. So what do you two, dub and homey, think will make this end differently? Do either of you think that Hamas is ever going to accept anything other than the death of Israel? They are not. So how do you deal with them then? Leave them in Gaza so that they keep attacking Israel? I keep asking you two for an answer. You dont give one because you dont have one. 

[AUDub 11,149]

Just now, DKW 86 said:

Wow, the disassociation here is profound. 

Hamas' one and only goal is Death to the Jews. That is all they are working for. They will not accept negotiated peace. So what do you two, dub and homey, think will make this end differently? Do either of you think that Hamas is ever going to accept anything other than the death of Israel? They are not. So how do you deal with them then? Leave them in Gaza so that they keep attacking Israel? I keep asking you two for an answer. You dont give one because you dont have one.

It won’t end short of 1 of 2 things happening:

1. A massive deradicalization campaign for Gazans. Deradicalization has been successful for former ISIS members. Other countries have used them after civil wars.

That’s the only way to a durable peace. Unless…

2. …you kill them all. 

[AUDub 11,149]

I won’t pretend to know how to pull off 1. 

[DKW 86 7,425]

3 minutes ago, AUDub said:

It won’t end short of 1 of 2 things happening:

1. A massive deradicalization campaign for Gazans. Deradicalization has been successful for former ISIS members. Other countries have used them after civil wars.

That’s the only way to a durable peace. Unless…

2. …you kill them all. 

This is a very honest answer. Thank you. I agree 100% with you. 

I watched some video today of some 8-12 yo boys in Gaza. They are completely brainwashed. I cant see them ever changing their minds nor ever accepting Jews in Israel, or anywhere else for that matter. Watching them was like watching documentaries on the Hitler Youth. They eventually fell away from the brainwashing because after the defeat they stopped getting fed the propaganda. it still took 2-3-4 years before their thinking started to really change course. In Gaza, under Hamas, they are getting a steady daily fill of the same hate filled propaganda. We cant stop that. Their fathers and their religious leaders continue to feed them lies and hate daily. I dont have a clue short of an almost supernatural intervention how to break the cycle. They are raising and continue to raise up more and more that take up the Hamas Banner. 

I cannot blame the children. They are children and the adults around them are feeding them extremeist rot. If you cant stop the hate, the only thing you can do is stop the killing. And unfortunately that action may be the worst and only choice.