Best Defense Debate....

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Don't forget that A Williams was not in the game for us LB this week.

[Argo 8]

Since BamaBrad doesn't want to use logic to compare the teams defense, I'll do it for him.

AU's defense vs. Bama's offense.

Total yards 276

Pass yards 226

ypa 7.5

Rush yards 50

ypc 1.6

UA's defense vs. AU's offense

Total yards 298

Pass yards 224

ypa 9.0

Rush yards 74

ypc 1.8

If Bama's offense is as good as AU's offense, I'd say that AU's defense did a better job. Since AU's offense was sooo much better than UA's offense coming into this game, I find it amazing that the defensive stats are so close. You guys are the most balanced offense in the SEC and probably top 5 in the nation. We are a one demensional offense that was middle of the pack in the SEC, and I don't know where at in the nation. You guys can call is spin or whatever you like, but you and I both know that AU on paper should have blown UA out. I'm talking at least three touchdowns.

I'd say our defense did a lot better job against AU's offense than AU's defense did against UA's offense. I don't care what any of you say, Pennington, Darby and McClain are not as talented as Carnell, Ronnie and Campbell.

[SKCAUB 0]

I've seen some people on this board who think saturday's game proved who has the best D.  That is the most ignorant thing I've ever heard.  I'll be honest, it's tough to pick one over the other.  All I know is that Saturday didn't prove crap.  I know you are sick of hearing bama people complain about injuries.  I'm sick of having to complain.  A fact is a fact though, whether you want to hear it or not.  There were times we were third string or worse at every backfield position and TE.  Also, our best O lineman was exremely hobbled.  You really think stopping that proves your D is better than ours?  Let's see, you guys pretty much have two NFL starting tailbacks playing together at the same time, a fifth year senior QB that has started for three years and we shut you out for a whole half.  I'm not so sure your D could have done that.  I could be wrong, but to me that was more impressive than you guys stopping a bunch of guys who we hoped would never be taking such important snaps this year.

125256[/snapback]

We have the best "D" in the country...and here's why...we give up 9.6 points per game. You cannot debate this...it's a fact. That takes away nothing from the fact that Bamar has a very good "D"...but AU has the best. PERIOD!

[AURainman 6]

If Bama's offense is as good as AU's offense, I'd say that AU's defense did a better job.  Since AU's offense was sooo much better than UA's offense coming into this game, I find it amazing that the defensive stats are so close.  You guys are the most balanced offense in the SEC and probably top 5 in the nation.  We are a one demensional offense that was middle of the pack in the SEC, and I don't know where at in the nation.  You guys can call is spin or whatever you like, but you and I both know that AU on paper should have blown UA out.  I'm talking at least three touchdowns. 

I'd say our defense did a lot better job against AU's offense than AU's defense did against UA's offense.  I don't care what any of you say, Pennington, Darby and McClain are not as talented as Carnell, Ronnie and Campbell.

125628[/snapback]

I highly appreciate SOMEONE from the Bama camp defending their D with logic. Now, to refute your logic.

1. If we had said that before the game (many of us did) we were called arrogant. If it was off limits to AU fans before the game, why do you get to use that excuse AFTER the game.

2. Yes, our O is better than your O, but we DID hold your O to like 130 yards until we dropped into Prevent. When comparing statistics, it is never an apples-to-apples comparison because of schemes and strategies. Obviously, with a 21-6 lead, our strategy was DRASTICALLY different than it was for the first 45:00 of the game. It was also DRASTICALLY different than Bama's strategy into the waning moments of the game. I haven't even mentioned that we lost like 20 yards on the last series.

[CarolinaTiger 0]

Since BamaBrad doesn't want to use logic to compare the teams defense, I'll do it for him.

AU's defense vs. Bama's offense.

Total yards          276

Pass yards          226

ypa                    7.5

Rush yards          50

ypc                    1.6

UA's defense vs. AU's offense

Total yards        298

Pass yards        224

ypa                    9.0

Rush yards        74

ypc                    1.8

If Bama's offense is as good as AU's offense, I'd say that AU's defense did a better job.  Since AU's offense was sooo much better than UA's offense coming into this game, I find it amazing that the defensive stats are so close.  You guys are the most balanced offense in the SEC and probably top 5 in the nation.  We are a one demensional offense that was middle of the pack in the SEC, and I don't know where at in the nation.  You guys can call is spin or whatever you like, but you and I both know that AU on paper should have blown UA out.  I'm talking at least three touchdowns. 

I'd say our defense did a lot better job against AU's offense than AU's defense did against UA's offense.  I don't care what any of you say, Pennington, Darby and McClain are not as talented as Carnell, Ronnie and Campbell.

125628[/snapback]

thanks for keeping this alive, TF24! you forgot the stat, btw.

i find the bolded statement absolutely amazing and also absolutely wrong, given the stats you yourself put forth. by your very numbers, auburn's defense did a better job vs. UA's offense than the opposite, no?

before we go forward, let me make sure i understand exactly what you're saying: 1) brad was wrong...we can judge defensive superiority by looking at saturday's game, and 2) alabama's defense was superior (on saturday??) or is superior (overall)??

[Argo 8]

If Bama's offense is as good as AU's offense, I'd say that AU's defense did a better job.  Since AU's offense was sooo much better than UA's offense coming into this game, I find it amazing that the defensive stats are so close.  You guys are the most balanced offense in the SEC and probably top 5 in the nation.  We are a one demensional offense that was middle of the pack in the SEC, and I don't know where at in the nation.  You guys can call is spin or whatever you like, but you and I both know that AU on paper should have blown UA out.  I'm talking at least three touchdowns. 

I'd say our defense did a lot better job against AU's offense than AU's defense did against UA's offense.  I don't care what any of you say, Pennington, Darby and McClain are not as talented as Carnell, Ronnie and Campbell.

125628[/snapback]

I highly appreciate SOMEONE from the Bama camp defending their D with logic. Now, to refute your logic.

1. If we had said that before the game (many of us did) we were called arrogant. If it was off limits to AU fans before the game, why do you get to use that excuse AFTER the game.

2. Yes, our O is better than your O, but we DID hold your O to like 130 yards until we dropped into Prevent. When comparing statistics, it is never an apples-to-apples comparison because of schemes and strategies. Obviously, with a 21-6 lead, our strategy was DRASTICALLY different than it was for the first 45:00 of the game. It was also DRASTICALLY different than Bama's strategy into the waning moments of the game. I haven't even mentioned that we lost like 20 yards on the last series.

125646[/snapback]

1. I didn't call any of you arrogant. DKW posted a link to a bama site that had a pick'em on it. More than half picked AU to win. I predicted AU to win by 31. 20 out of 21 sports writers in Alabama predicted AU to win. Most by blowout. It's not an excuse, it's a fact.

2. I, along with the media and many fans on both sides figured you guys would stop us on offense. We are one demensional and it just so happens that AU's defensive strength was our offensive strength. I predicted Bama to score a single fieldgoal in the game, and by looking at stats on paper, I think it was a legit call. Georgia, who has a much more balanced and better offense than Bama didn't come within 8 points of you guys.

[Argo 8]

thanks for keeping this alive, TF24! you forgot the stat, btw.

No problem, and I haven't forgot THE stat, I'll remember it for a long time.

i find the bolded statement absolutely amazing and also absolutely wrong, given the stats you yourself put forth. by your very numbers, auburn's defense did a better job vs. UA's offense than the opposite, no?

Given the stats I put forth, AU's defense did do a better job against bama if you are willing to say that Bama's offense is as potent as AU's. Too bad for Bama that isn't the case. AU's offense is WAAAAAAY better than UA's. When you put that equation in, AU should have done a better job against UA.

before we go forward, let me make sure i understand exactly what you're saying: 1) brad was wrong...we can judge defensive superiority by looking at saturday's game, and 2) alabama's defense was superior (on saturday??) or is superior (overall)??

1. Brad looked like AU's offense in the first quarter against bama. Very confused, burning two timeouts trying to figure out what was going on.

2. I'm not going to use the word superior because I don't think either defense is superior to the other. I said when you match the #2 total offense against the #1 total defense vs. the #3 total defense vs. the # 6 total offense, the second one should have looked a whole lot better. Those are SEC rankings by the way, not national.

3. As for the overall defense, I'm not going to say that one defense is superior to the other. If you swapped the defenses, AU would still be 11-0 and Bama would still be 6-5. I'd say Both are VERY good, and evenly matched.

[mcgufcm 4,097]

the fact is we shut down the best running team in the sec (or at least statistically the best) for 50 yards. pennington came on during the last drive while we played in a shell to tack on bout 70 yards to a below 200 yard effort for the day. add to that the circumstances our defense faced during the entire game (that'd be the 4 possessions in the redzone in the first half), and i'd once again add: the defense's job is to stop you from scoring. you were less than 20 yards away four times in 30 minutes and you got SIX POINTS. like i said, i'll take our's give up my 10 points and take my chances.

[Guest Tigrinum Major]

Since BamaBrad doesn't want to use logic to compare the teams defense, I'll do it for him.

AU's defense vs. Bama's offense.

Total yards          276

Pass yards          226

ypa                    7.5

Rush yards          50

ypc                    1.6

UA's defense vs. AU's offense

Total yards        298

Pass yards        224

ypa                    9.0

Rush yards        74

ypc                    1.8

If Bama's offense is as good as AU's offense, I'd say that AU's defense did a better job.  Since AU's offense was sooo much better than UA's offense coming into this game, I find it amazing that the defensive stats are so close.  You guys are the most balanced offense in the SEC and probably top 5 in the nation.  We are a one demensional offense that was middle of the pack in the SEC, and I don't know where at in the nation.  You guys can call is spin or whatever you like, but you and I both know that AU on paper should have blown UA out.  I'm talking at least three touchdowns. 

I'd say our defense did a lot better job against AU's offense than AU's defense did against UA's offense.  I don't care what any of you say, Pennington, Darby and McClain are not as talented as Carnell, Ronnie and Campbell.

125628[/snapback]

All this "logic" is making my head hurt. The most logical thing I have seen today (and I believe it was you that said it, TF24) is that if the defenses were switched, the team records would still be the same. Both defenses played basically the same schedule and put up similiar stats. But, Bama's depth worked against them and they gave up a lot of points in the second half of a lot of games.

How about we all agree on this...starting lineup vs. starting lineup, Bama's defense was probably better. Overall, from first to third string, Auburn's defense was probably better. Now, I ask you, which one would you rather have had this year?

[Argo 8]

the fact is we shut down the best running team in the sec (or at least statistically the best) for 50 yards. pennington came on during the last drive while we played in a shell to tack on bout 70 yards to a below 200 yard effort for the day. add to that the circumstances our defense faced during the entire game (that'd be the 4 possessions in the redzone in the first half), and i'd once again add: the defense's job is to stop you from scoring. you were less than 20 yards away four times in 30 minutes and you got SIX POINTS. like i said, i'll take our's give up my 10 points and take my chances.

125679[/snapback]

AU's defense held Darby and Johns to 50 yards. UA's defense held Carnell Williams and Ronnie Brown to 74 yards. Which do you consider a better job? UA held Campbell to 224 yards passing. AU held Pennington to 226 yards passing. If you want to say that Pennington, Darby and Johns compare to Carnell, Ronnie and Jason than you could also say that AU did a better job. If you really think that Bama's backfield was as AU's then I'll give you credit for having the balls to say it, but that still won't make it true.

As for the scoring part of your thread, you are right. Had we put it in the endzone instead of getting fieldgoals it would have been a different game. I won't argue that AU has a better scoring defense. As I stated though, AU's strength on defense was UA's strength on offense. MANY people expected AU to shut down the run game. Not many expected AU to only have 22 more total yards and 8 points more than bama at the end of the game.

[TigerinBham 1]

well if you want to talk about "ifs", If Auburn had not been in a soft zone after going up 21-6, then the final score would have been just that 21-6, a 15 point victory. I mean 85 of your total yards of like 275 came on that last drive when the game was over

[Argo 8]

How about we all agree on this...starting lineup vs. starting lineup, Bama's defense was probably better. Overall, from first to third string, Auburn's defense was probably better. Now, I ask you, which one would you rather have had this year?

Auburns OFFENSE!! Seriously, I'd still take bama's defense but only because I'm biased. I don't know how many starters AU's defense loses after this year, but bama only loses Bates and Wortham. I imagine we'll be having this exact same debates next year, because I think we will have the top 2 defenses in the nation. I only hope that Bama's offense is better than AU's.

[mcgufcm 4,097]

i'm not saying your boys are better than caddilac or ronnie or jc. i'm saying look at where the defenses were. what's more impressive: giving up 100 yards to auburn's offense the first half (very impressive) or holding a team with 4 trips inside the redzone (two of which had nothing to do with defense it was a punt return to the 14 and an int return to the 6) to 6 points (unthinkable)? like i said, i'll take our's you can have your's and i'll take my chances.

[Argo 8]

well if you want to talk about "ifs", If Auburn had not been in a soft zone after going up 21-6, then the final score would have been just that 21-6, a 15 point victory. I mean 85 of your total yards of like 275 came on that last drive when the game was over

125686[/snapback]

If I was going to use the "if" game, I'd say 82 out of AU's 298 yards came on two plays. Take out those two plays, and Bama wins. I'm not going that route. I'm saying that we held Campbell to 224 yards and we held two 1st round draft pick runningbacks to 74 total rushing yards. Your guys held Darby and Johns to 50 yards. Bama gave up 1.6 ypc vs AU's 1.8 which means AU had more yards because they rushed more. Your guys also yielded a career day for our qb.

In the end, AU won because they were ROCK SOLID in the redzone as mcgufcm pointed out.

[TigerinBham 1]

yep and if we talk about "ifs" again, the majority of your passing yards came on 3 passes. see we can debate this till the cows come home. I agree with mcqufcm. You can have yours and I would rather have ours any day. And take my chances all over again. And, yes the majority of our defense returns next year

[mcgufcm 4,097]

next year will be interesting. we're going to be more explosive at end b/c mcclover and groves (most likely) will be the starters, but both guys need to work on playing the run as eddins and langenfeld both do it better. we also lose jay ratliff, and while he was solid (dominant against bama this year), his backup played just as much. we've also got pat sims (a guy who almost cracked the rotation this year) waiting in the wings after redshirting. all the linebackers are back. so the front 7 is going to be nasty.

the secondary is more questionable. we lose the best corner in the sec (sorry lsu fans, carlos just looks a LOT better this year), and the tone setter for the defense in junior rosegreen. carlos is harder to replace talent-wise b/c we've got eric brock, tony bell, and steve gandy ready to step in where junior played (all of which were big time recruits and two of which played well at backup and special teams this year). so the secondary is going to need time to jell at the start of the year (although they should benefit from that pass rush provided by the sec co-leaders in sacks mcclover and groves).

[wesfau 0]

the secondary is more questionable. we lose the best corner in the sec (sorry lsu fans, carlos just looks a LOT better this year), and the tone setter for the defense in junior rosegreen. carlos is harder to replace talent-wise b/c we've got eric brock, tony bell, and steve gandy ready to step in where junior played (all of which were big time recruits and two of which played well at backup and special teams this year). so the secondary is going to need time to jell at the start of the year (although they should benefit from that pass rush provided by the sec co-leaders in sacks mcclover and groves).

125706[/snapback]

Three words:

David

Irons

Jr.

Carlos is a special player and will be very difficult to replace, but I have confidence in Irons.

[mcgufcm 4,097]

me too. i think david's going to be the man, but even the man would have a tough time filling the shoes of a four year starter, all-american, possibly national defensive player of the year like carlos rogers.

i think we're going to be deep at corner (irons, pitts, gilbert, hobbs, lee, anthony campbell, lorenzo ferguson), but finding the right rotation is going to take time.

[WarTim 3,456]

Just wait until recruiting cranks up! Remember, as has been pointed out by the uaters, blue chippers make you #1 ! ! !

[BamaGrad03 0]

Just wait until recruiting cranks up! Remember, as has been pointed out by the uaters, blue chippers make you #1 ! ! !

125759[/snapback]

recruiting only counts to WarTim when AU beats UA in it...all the other years recruiting is overrated.

[WarTim 3,456]

No bg. I will be glad to give you a quick lesson in "Football #101"...listen up.....

ready?...Here goes....

AUBURN 17 28 21

uat 7 23 13

THAT is all that "counts" ! ! !

All the rest, as they say, is for "losers" ! ! !

Glad to assist in your quest for Football knowledge in the Great State of Alabama, which is currently owned and operated by the Auburn Tigers ! ! !

p.s. Ain't these braggin' rights FUN!?!

[mcgufcm 4,097]

you know all that matters to me in recruiting bg? did our coaches want the guy or not? if there's some stud hoss that we didn't offer, i don't care how many stars he has i don't want him. if there is a guy rated low that our coaches offer the summer before his senior year, i want the guy b/c i know we have him rated through the roof. one of those guys this year is walter mcfadden. he's a middle of the road prospect to the recruiting gurus, but we had him rated as the number one corner in the south after he camped with us.

in short, tubby has a great track record so if he tells me we got good guys that we wanted; we got good guys that we wanted. if they happen to be "blue chippers" on those websites and get us more pub, great. if not, we'll see your blue chippers in the rearview mirror 4 years from now so no worries.

[rebdawg 5]

Who is ranked #1 in the most important stat that counts - scoring defense?

Nuf sed.

[AUloggerhead 2,233]

There is no question about who's defense is better now or was better before the game was played: AU. The only reason that uat had the #1 defense label (least number of total yds per game given up) was beacause of a statistical fluke. They were ranked very highly in pass defense but that statistic was very misleading because none of the teams they played passed the ball worth a dam#. The top 3 passing teams in the SEC are UF, UGA & AU. uat didn't play UF or UGA and didn't run into AU until the last game. Their run defense wasn't even the best run defense in the SEC.

Whatever. JC torched their vaunted secondary practicly at will. His best throw was the 3rd & 17 TD pass. 3rd & 17. Talk about making a statement & silencing a crowd.

All this talk about uat "dominating" AU in the first few minutes is a bunch of hooey too. I like how the story keeps growing: it was only the first couple of series in the 1st, but that has since been stretched to the entire 1st quarter, then the entire 1st half, and for the really delusional, ... right up until the actual second in the 3rd quarter right before AU took the lead -- for good.

The facts are these:

(1) uat came out playing over their heads with a lot of emotion (very typical of home underdogs in a big rivalry game.)

(2) The AU defense clearly showed which was the superior D. I don't need stats to tell me this. My eyes saw them have to run back on the field after the offense threw an interception which the bammies returned to the AU 6: 1st & goal from the 6 in the 1st quarter with Mo Mentum jumping up & down on the uat sideline and every single uat offensive player fresh, full of adrenaline (i.e. feeling no pain due to heroically playing with injuries) & eager to shove the ball down the #2 team's throat courtesy of their #1 OL in the SEC, strong rushing O and 1k-yd TB. Four plays later ... uat kicks a FG with a 4th & goal from the 5 situation. 3 plays gained them 1 net yard. That, my friends ... is a SUPERIOR defense!

(3) As soon as the adrenaline wore off, AU took control of the game. This happened in the 2nd quarter when AU took possesion on their own 17-yd line and marched it to the bammie 4 in 12 plays. The drive stalled. No biggie -- these things happen from time to time. That Vaughn unbelievably missed a point-blank FG does not erase the fact that AU had taken over the ball game at that point. The bammies were delerious that they had "shut out" AU, but it was a premature celebration and due to a mere technicality. And all the fist pumping by the uat players running off the field at the half couldn't disguise that either. {Gotta admit, it sure riled up all the goobers in the stands, though.}

(3) AU scored their next 3 possesions. A thing of beauty to admire -- drives of 80, 58 & 52 yards, respectively. Pure domination.

(4) Although the entire AU Nation wanted the team to pour it on & RUTS (they always do,) the coaching staff made a conscious decision to not give the bammies an opportunity to get back in the game, and to make them earn everything. Seeing as how the bammies had already intercepted and nearly ran it back plus, they had already made a few nice punt returns, the plan was to not let them do that again but to make them play a perfect ball control game with the clock winding down. For them to win they would have to be perfect -- and everyone not wearing red or white knows the bammies aren't perfect. The coaching staff set a trap for the bammies and they blundered right into it.

(5) Final score 21-13. It wasn't perfect but, it didn't have to be. The superior AU defense forced the bammie O to use up too much of the clock. Even their TD pass came on a 4th & desperation situation. The on-sides kick wasn't even close. The AU offense ran out the final 1:26 even though the bammies had a TO left. They never got their grubby hands on the ball again until time had expired. Pure Domination. WDE

[AUTaxMan 0]

Another point to be made about Bama's passing defense: Teams tend to throw a lot less when they have the lead.