Best Defense Debate....

[Argo 8]

There is no question about who's defense is better now or was better before the game was played:  AU.  The only reason that uat had the #1 defense label (least number of total yds per game given up) was beacause of a statistical fluke.  They were ranked very highly in pass defense but that statistic was very misleading because none of the teams they played passed the ball worth a dam#.  The top 3 passing teams in the SEC are UF, UGA & AU.  uat didn't play UF or UGA and didn't run into AU until the last game.  Their run defense wasn't even the best run defense in the SEC. 

Whatever.  JC torched their vaunted secondary practicly at will.  His best throw  was the 3rd & 17 TD pass.  3rd & 17.      Talk about making a statement & silencing a crowd.  

All this talk about uat "dominating" AU in the first few minutes is a bunch of hooey too.  I like how the story keeps growing:  it was only the first couple of series in the 1st, but that has since been stretched to the entire 1st quarter, then the entire 1st half, and for the really delusional, ... right up until the actual second in the 3rd quarter right before AU took the lead -- for good. 

The facts are these: 

(1) uat came out playing over their heads with a lot of emotion (very typical of home underdogs in a big rivalry game.) 

(2) The AU defense clearly showed which was the superior D.  I don't need stats to tell me this.  My eyes saw them have to run back on the field after the offense threw an interception which the bammies returned to the AU 6:  1st & goal from the 6 in the 1st quarter with Mo Mentum jumping up & down on the uat sideline and every single uat offensive player fresh, full of adrenaline (i.e. feeling no pain due to heroically playing with injuries) & eager to shove the ball down the #2 team's throat courtesy of their #1 OL in the SEC, strong rushing O and 1k-yd TB.  Four plays later ...  uat kicks a FG with a 4th & goal from the 5 situation.  3 plays gained them 1 net yard.  That, my friends ... is a SUPERIOR defense!  

(3) As soon as the adrenaline wore off, AU took control of the game.  This happened in the 2nd quarter when AU took possesion on their own 17-yd line and marched it to the bammie 4 in 12 plays.  The drive stalled.  No biggie -- these things happen from time to time.  That Vaughn unbelievably missed a point-blank FG does not erase the fact that AU had taken over the ball game at that point.  The bammies were delerious that they had "shut out" AU, but it was a premature celebration and due to a mere technicality.  And all the fist pumping by the uat players running off the field at the half couldn't disguise that either.  {Gotta admit, it sure riled up all the goobers in the stands, though.}   

(3) AU scored their next 3 possesions.  A thing of beauty to admire -- drives of 80, 58 & 52 yards, respectively.  Pure domination.  

(4) Although the entire AU Nation wanted the team to pour it on & RUTS (they always do,) the coaching staff made a conscious decision to not give the bammies an opportunity to get back in the game, and to make them earn everything.  Seeing as how the bammies had already intercepted and nearly ran it back plus, they had already made a few nice punt returns, the plan was to not let them do that again but to make them play a perfect ball control game with the clock winding down.  For them to win they would have to be perfect -- and everyone not wearing red or white knows the bammies aren't perfect.  The coaching staff set a trap for the bammies and they blundered right into it.   

(5) Final score 21-13.  It wasn't perfect but, it didn't have to be.  The superior AU defense forced the bammie O to use up too much of the clock.  Even their TD pass came on a 4th & desperation situation.  The on-sides kick wasn't even close.  The AU offense ran out the final 1:26 even though the bammies had a TO left.  They never got their grubby hands on the ball again until time had expired.  Pure Domination.   WDE

125999[/snapback]

Pure domination?? THIS JUST IN!!!! AU was LOSING AT HALFTIME!!! Now, if you want to claim pure domination in the second half you won't have an arguement out of me.

All this talk about uat "dominating" AU in the first few minutes is a bunch of hooey too. I like how the story keeps growing: it was only the first couple of series in the 1st, but that has since been stretched to the entire 1st quarter

it was only the first couple of series in the 1st? but that has since been stretched to the entire 1st quarter????? Are you denying this??? AU only had the ball for 3 drives in the first quarter. 1st drive, 3 plays for -2 yards. Second drive, 3 plays for -1 yard. Third and final drive in the first quarter, 3 plays for -1 yard. How is that not complete domination by Bama's defense in the first quarter?

It's simply amazing how far out some of you will stretch reality to keep from having to credit bama.

[Argo 8]

Another point to be made about Bama's passing defense: Teams tend to throw a lot less when they have the lead.

126000[/snapback]

Let me make a point about AU's rushing defense. Teams tend to run a lot less when they are behind. It works both ways.

[WarTim 3,456]

This just in.....The TEAM with the MOST POINTS at the end of the game...W I N S !

[SKCAUB 0]

There is no question about who's defense is better now or was better before the game was played:  AU.  The only reason that uat had the #1 defense label (least number of total yds per game given up) was beacause of a statistical fluke.  They were ranked very highly in pass defense but that statistic was very misleading because none of the teams they played passed the ball worth a dam#.  The top 3 passing teams in the SEC are UF, UGA & AU.  uat didn't play UF or UGA and didn't run into AU until the last game.  Their run defense wasn't even the best run defense in the SEC. 

Whatever.  JC torched their vaunted secondary practicly at will.  His best throw  was the 3rd & 17 TD pass.  3rd & 17.    Talk about making a statement & silencing a crowd. 

All this talk about uat "dominating" AU in the first few minutes is a bunch of hooey too.  I like how the story keeps growing:  it was only the first couple of series in the 1st, but that has since been stretched to the entire 1st quarter, then the entire 1st half, and for the really delusional, ... right up until the actual second in the 3rd quarter right before AU took the lead -- for good. 

The facts are these: 

(1) uat came out playing over their heads with a lot of emotion (very typical of home underdogs in a big rivalry game.) 

(2) The AU defense clearly showed which was the superior D.  I don't need stats to tell me this.  My eyes saw them have to run back on the field after the offense threw an interception which the bammies returned to the AU 6:  1st & goal from the 6 in the 1st quarter with Mo Mentum jumping up & down on the uat sideline and every single uat offensive player fresh, full of adrenaline (i.e. feeling no pain due to heroically playing with injuries) & eager to shove the ball down the #2 team's throat courtesy of their #1 OL in the SEC, strong rushing O and 1k-yd TB.  Four plays later ...  uat kicks a FG with a 4th & goal from the 5 situation.  3 plays gained them 1 net yard.  That, my friends ... is a SUPERIOR defense! 

(3) As soon as the adrenaline wore off, AU took control of the game.  This happened in the 2nd quarter when AU took possesion on their own 17-yd line and marched it to the bammie 4 in 12 plays.  The drive stalled.  No biggie -- these things happen from time to time.  That Vaughn unbelievably missed a point-blank FG does not erase the fact that AU had taken over the ball game at that point.  The bammies were delerious that they had "shut out" AU, but it was a premature celebration and due to a mere technicality.  And all the fist pumping by the uat players running off the field at the half couldn't disguise that either.  {Gotta admit, it sure riled up all the goobers in the stands, though.}   

(3) AU scored their next 3 possesions.  A thing of beauty to admire -- drives of 80, 58 & 52 yards, respectively.  Pure domination. 

(4) Although the entire AU Nation wanted the team to pour it on & RUTS (they always do,) the coaching staff made a conscious decision to not give the bammies an opportunity to get back in the game, and to make them earn everything.  Seeing as how the bammies had already intercepted and nearly ran it back plus, they had already made a few nice punt returns, the plan was to not let them do that again but to make them play a perfect ball control game with the clock winding down.  For them to win they would have to be perfect -- and everyone not wearing red or white knows the bammies aren't perfect.  The coaching staff set a trap for the bammies and they blundered right into it.   

(5) Final score 21-13.  It wasn't perfect but, it didn't have to be.  The superior AU defense forced the bammie O to use up too much of the clock.  Even their TD pass came on a 4th & desperation situation.  The on-sides kick wasn't even close.  The AU offense ran out the final 1:26 even though the bammies had a TO left.  They never got their grubby hands on the ball again until time had expired.  Pure Domination.  WDE

125999[/snapback]

What's your point?

[CarolinaTiger 0]

well, i just wanted to BUMP this thread back up to the top one last time... it was a good thread...one that got a lot of mileage for such a meaningless topic as "who's is bigger". and, since it's digressed into a somewhat respectable discussion of next year's defenses, i guess that's a good thing.

i imagine it'll drift on into that place where all those missing socks go when you know they've put it them in the dryer, but ....

ty bamabrad ... TF24. happy thanksgiving to you both.

ct

[AUloggerhead 2,233]

Pure domination??  THIS JUST IN!!!! AU was LOSING AT HALFTIME!!!  Now, if you want to claim pure domination in the second half you won't have an arguement out of me. 

All this talk about uat "dominating" AU in the first few minutes is a bunch of hooey too.  I like how the story keeps growing:  it was only the first couple of series in the 1st, but that has since been stretched to the entire 1st quarter

it was only the first couple of series in the 1st?  but that has since been stretched to the entire 1st quarter?????  Are you denying this???  AU only had the ball for 3 drives in the first quarter.   1st drive, 3 plays for -2 yards.  Second drive, 3 plays for -1 yard.  Third and final drive in the first quarter, 3 plays for -1 yard.  How is that not complete domination by Bama's defense in the first quarter?

It's simply amazing how far out some of you will stretch reality to keep from having to credit bama.

126015[/snapback]

So, what is "domination" to you? Is that like a light switch you can turn on & off? Because the light switch analogy is the only way to explain the night & day difference of the uat defense in that game. The 2nd half? It ain't called a dominating D when the only way they can get off the field for a rest is to give up a TD & watch their KO return team get a workout. ( )

Your D came out inspired at the start and their fundamentals were sound -- I'll grant you that. AU didn't help their case with some of the mistakes they made on offense. Man, I hate to call out Ronnie Brown but he made a terrible decision to run east-west instead of north-south on one those swing passes where he was boxed in near the sideline. I know he was just trying to make something happen but AU would have been a lot better off if RB had gotten his 1 or 2 positive yards instead of ending up with minus-6. Dominating play by uat defense? Hardly, ... more like an inexcusable mistake by a 5th-year senior who should know better.

TF24, you want to analyze some stats? Take a look at the drive charts of the 1st half:

uat

1. Start on uat 20, 9 plays, 55 yds, 2 First Downs; FG

2. Start on uat 46, 6 plays, 17 yds, 1 FD; punt

3. Start on uat 32, 3 plays, 4 yds, 0 FDs; punt

You don't need to be a trend analysis expert to guess what's happening.

4. Start on AU 15, 6 plays, 10 yds, 1 FD; interception

5. Start on AU 6, 4 plays, 1 yd, 0 FDs; FG

6. Start on uat 46, 3 plays, 7 yds, 0 FDs; punt

I've seen many a bammie fan arguement & read some al.com articles where Shulla's play calling was severely criticized -- as if that was the sole reason for the offense's difficulty in moving the ball. An objective observer would give credit where it's due: the AU defense was simply AWESOME! Some might even say they dominated the uat offense.

1st half totals: 31 plays, 94 yds, 4 FDs, 1 int, 2 FG for a 6-points.

Now, let's examine AU's 1st half drive charts:

1. Start on AU 31, 3 plays, -2 yds, O FDs; punt

2. Start on AU 17, 3 plays, -5 yds, O FDs; punt

3. Start on AU 9, 3 plays, 4 yds, O FDs; punt

4. Start on AU 3, 4 plays, 12 yds, 1 FD; interception

O.K. A little slow getting out of the gate and we ain't winning the field position game, that's for dang sure. We are starting to show we can move the ball.

5. Start on AU 28, 4 plays, 10 yds, 1 FD; fumble

6. Start on AU 17, 12 plays, 74 yds, 4 FDs; missed FG

Dang the turnovers! AU offense is rolling (baby, it's rolling! Sorry... it's an ingrained response! ) Vaughn ... ... ... his job might be in jeopardy if he doesn't start making the chip shots.

1st half totals: 29 plays, 93 yds, 6 FDs, 1 int & 1 fumble, 1 missed FG for 0 points.

Compare & contrast. Stats are nearly identical. uat O started out strong & then folded like a cheap K-Mart deck chair under the relentless pressure of the AU defense. AU O started out disorganized but had pretty much adjusted fully on the fly by the last drive. The fumble & the missed FG explain the 6-point deficit. The only domination evident in the 1st half is from the AU defense. Did I miss anything? WDE

[WarTim 3,456]

Touche' & WAR EAGLE ! ! !

[Argo 8]

Pure domination??  THIS JUST IN!!!! AU was LOSING AT HALFTIME!!!  Now, if you want to claim pure domination in the second half you won't have an arguement out of me. 

All this talk about uat "dominating" AU in the first few minutes is a bunch of hooey too.  I like how the story keeps growing:  it was only the first couple of series in the 1st, but that has since been stretched to the entire 1st quarter

it was only the first couple of series in the 1st?  but that has since been stretched to the entire 1st quarter?????  Are you denying this???  AU only had the ball for 3 drives in the first quarter.   1st drive, 3 plays for -2 yards.  Second drive, 3 plays for -1 yard.  Third and final drive in the first quarter, 3 plays for -1 yard.  How is that not complete domination by Bama's defense in the first quarter?

It's simply amazing how far out some of you will stretch reality to keep from having to credit bama.

126015[/snapback]

So, what is "domination" to you? Is that like a light switch you can turn on & off? Because the light switch analogy is the only way to explain the night & day difference of the uat defense in that game. The 2nd half? It ain't called a dominating D when the only way they can get off the field for a rest is to give up a TD & watch their KO return team get a workout. ( )

Your D came out inspired at the start and their fundamentals were sound -- I'll grant you that. AU didn't help their case with some of the mistakes they made on offense. Man, I hate to call out Ronnie Brown but he made a terrible decision to run east-west instead of north-south on one those swing passes where he was boxed in near the sideline. I know he was just trying to make something happen but AU would have been a lot better off if RB had gotten his 1 or 2 positive yards instead of ending up with minus-6. Dominating play by uat defense? Hardly, ... more like an inexcusable mistake by a 5th-year senior who should know better.

TF24, you want to analyze some stats? Take a look at the drive charts of the 1st half:

uat

1. Start on uat 20, 9 plays, 55 yds, 2 First Downs; FG

2. Start on uat 46, 6 plays, 17 yds, 1 FD; punt

3. Start on uat 32, 3 plays, 4 yds, 0 FDs; punt

You don't need to be a trend analysis expert to guess what's happening.

4. Start on AU 15, 6 plays, 10 yds, 1 FD; interception

5. Start on AU 6, 4 plays, 1 yd, 0 FDs; FG

6. Start on uat 46, 3 plays, 7 yds, 0 FDs; punt

I've seen many a bammie fan arguement & read some al.com articles where Shulla's play calling was severely criticized -- as if that was the sole reason for the offense's difficulty in moving the ball. An objective observer would give credit where it's due: the AU defense was simply AWESOME! Some might even say they dominated the uat offense.

1st half totals: 31 plays, 94 yds, 4 FDs, 1 int, 2 FG for a 6-points.

Now, let's examine AU's 1st half drive charts:

1. Start on AU 31, 3 plays, -2 yds, O FDs; punt

2. Start on AU 17, 3 plays, -5 yds, O FDs; punt

3. Start on AU 9, 3 plays, 4 yds, O FDs; punt

4. Start on AU 3, 4 plays, 12 yds, 1 FD; interception

O.K. A little slow getting out of the gate and we ain't winning the field position game, that's for dang sure. We are starting to show we can move the ball.

5. Start on AU 28, 4 plays, 10 yds, 1 FD; fumble

6. Start on AU 17, 12 plays, 74 yds, 4 FDs; missed FG

Dang the turnovers! AU offense is rolling (baby, it's rolling! Sorry... it's an ingrained response! ) Vaughn ... ... ... his job might be in jeopardy if he doesn't start making the chip shots.

1st half totals: 29 plays, 93 yds, 6 FDs, 1 int & 1 fumble, 1 missed FG for 0 points.

Compare & contrast. Stats are nearly identical. uat O started out strong & then folded like a cheap K-Mart deck chair under the relentless pressure of the AU defense. AU O started out disorganized but had pretty much adjusted fully on the fly by the last drive. The fumble & the missed FG explain the 6-point deficit. The only domination evident in the 1st half is from the AU defense. Did I miss anything? WDE

126289[/snapback]

Very nice thought out post with plenty of stats to disprove my "UA dominated the first half" arguement. The only problem is, I responded to this...

All this talk about uat "dominating" AU in the first few minutes is a bunch of hooey too.  I like how the story keeps growing:  it was only the first couple of series in the 1st, but that has since been stretched to the entire 1st quarter

....I'd say by the stats that you and I both provided that UA did indeed dominate the first quarter, in which you said they didn't.

Compare & contrast.  Stats are nearly identical.  uat O started out strong & then folded like a cheap K-Mart deck chair under the relentless pressure of the AU defense.  AU O started out disorganized but had pretty much adjusted fully on the fly by the last drive.  The fumble & the missed FG explain the 6-point deficit.  The only domination evident in the 1st half is from the AU defense.  Did I miss anything?

Stats are nearly identical, but defense that DID allow points gets to claim domination? The thinking there is very biased. If the yardage stats are nearly identical, I'd say it was a draw. Since one defense didn't allow points and the other did, I'd give the advantage point to the defense that DIDN'T allow a point.

Dominating play by uat defense? Hardly, ... more like an inexcusable mistake by a 5th-year senior who should know better. ..... An objective observer would give credit where it's due: the AU defense was simply AWESOME! Some might even say they dominated the uat offense.

So are you an objective observer? With those two statements, you seem more like a very biased observer. When UA's defense holds AU to 93 yards in the first half, it's because of the AU offense not doing there job, but when AU's defense holds UA to 94 yards in the first half, the AU defense was simply AWESOME and dominated the UA offense??????? Logger, how can you not see your biasm in those two statements??????

[CarolinaTiger 0]

well, i can't say i'm disappointed that this thread lives!

here's an observation:

TF24, your "team that gave up points" argument holds for the 55 yard drive...congratulations on the field goal...however

it doesn't hold water for the gifted 2nd FG. yielding FGs instead of TDs is a good thing.

2ndly: what is the argument again? that the UAT defense is better(?) or that they played better Saturday(?) than their counterpart?

ct

[AU4Ever 0]

21-13 is the only stat I care about. Who has the best D or O doesn't matter. It's who has the best T-E-A-M. (as in whole team, you know). As proved this year, the world's greatest defense doesn't make up for a bad offense. A team has to play on both sides of the ball, and if one is not doing well, the other either can take up the slack, or lose the game. Again, 11-0 in total games this season, 20-13 win on our last one.

And if you want to talk defense, our defense averaged giving up 10.6 points a game. Our offense averaged more than that per game, so we win them all. This is what I'll remember about our team. Not how many yards they gained in a game, not how many passes they completed, not how many times they went 3 and out, not how many times the other team went 3 and out, not anything but the score of the 11 games. 11-0 matters. STATS don't.

[quietfan 233]

http://www.al.com/auburnfootball/huntsvill...37776281080.xml

The Tigers lead the nation in scoring defense. They are the only team in the country in the top 10 of four major defensive categories - scoring, total defense, pass defense and rushing defense.

...not that facts will ever sway opinions

[Argo 8]

well, i can't say i'm disappointed that this thread lives!

here's an observation:

TF24, your "team that gave up points" argument holds for the 55 yard drive...congratulations on the field goal...however

it doesn't hold water for the gifted 2nd FG.  yielding FGs instead of TDs is a good thing.

2ndly: what is the argument again?  that the UAT defense is better(?) or that they played better Saturday(?) than their counterpart? 

ct

126303[/snapback]

Yielding field goals instead of TDs is a good thing. Holding a very good AU offense to -4 yards in three drives to start the game was even better. That was the arguement. Logger made a statement that UA's defense didn't dominate the first quarter of the game. Logger then put up numbers stating that AU's defense dominated the first half. Yardage was one yard off from being the same, but one defense didn't allow any points. Since the total yards given up were almost exactly the same, I said I've give the advantage points to the defense that DIDN'T allow points. Since the second fieldgoal was a gift(because no way can you contribute that to field position) we won't count it. Auburn's #1 scoring defense that you guys harped on all year allowed points, Bama's didn't. How can anyone say that Auburn's defense played a better first half than bama's?

I'm not sure about what the arguement is. It seems to change with every post. I was just responding to Logger's post regarding the facts that bama's defense didn't dominate the first half but AU's did.

Either way, AU won 21-13. Also CT, please if you don't mind, NEVER mention me and BamaBrad in the same sentence again. Seriously though, Happy Thanksgiving to you also.

[CarolinaTiger 0]

let's see...

who are the alabama fans here?

there's BS...oh yeah... also TF24 & BamaBrad....

[Argo 8]

let's see...

who are the alabama fans here?

there's BG & TF24...oh yeah... also BamaBrad....

126357[/snapback]

That's better.

[Aubie7 0]

I'm just talking about our game saturday dude

Me, too.

....if you think that our respective Defenses played against evenly matched offenses then this debate is definitely pointless. 

Now, where did I say that? My point was that your post was a continuation of the "Bama has the #1 defense" debate that has been going on here for a few weeks. I pointed out to you that you either accept that, statistically, your assertion is incorrect or you must accept the argument that indicts statistical rankings for not taking into account quality of the opponent.

I'll say it again, my only point was that saturday's game didn't prove crap.

125294[/snapback]

Oh, but it did, bammer. It proved that Bama is 2nd rate in the state....one more time.

125299[/snapback]

are you capable of comprehending words? did you ever see me write that we had the #1 defense? No. There are a whole lot of defenses around the country that could have held us to 13 points on saturday, and probably some even lower. I guess they all would have been the best too. Apparently beating bama's third string offense means you have the best D. I understand now. I guess that's true.

125306[/snapback]

Wow! With the Holiday's upon us, I don't know how many of these "WHINE" and Cheese parties I can take!! " We had our 3rd team in the game, Our QB was hurt, I dropped my ice cream!" WAHHHHHHH!!! Hey just $h!t or get off the can!

21-13!!!!!!!! Three in a row!!!

[Guest Tigrinum Major]

I think we need more beatdowns of people like Brad...