democrats set to release CIA "torture" report today

[quietfan 233]

I think it gives him the right to criticize our government. You buffoonish extremist really are stupid and hypocritical. If you criticize the government, you are patriotic. If anyone else criticizes the government they are anti-American.

We didn't torture. A grand total of 3 were waterboarded. 3

Water boarding even three people = torture. So yes we did!

(And that doesn't include sleep deprivation, striking/slapping, cold rooms, hours chained into forced uncomfortable postures, and "rectal re-hydration".)

One can debate whether it was justified, appropriate, or necessary, but we certainly did it!

[cooltigger21 0]

The big reason for this was payback for investigations into suspected leaks by democrat members and staffers of the Senate intelligence committee. Remember when Feinstein wnt off because of that. Anyone remember ole Patrick leaky Leahy? They kicked him off the committee because he couldn't keep the secrets that were shared with them as apart of their oversight role. We haven't had a successful major attack on this country since 9/11. That didn't happen by accident Our intelligence community has worked tirelessly to get the information to prevent this. They didn't get this information by being choirboys. They can never reveal to the public how they foiled these plots.

[quietfan 233]

It doesn't matter! People have to die before there's a change in policy....and more have to die before there's another policy for change.

I don't think for one minute that the CIA used proper technique to get information. I also think the Colonial Army and the spies for George Washington had a policy that involved unusual methods to gain information. Are we supposed to be above this kind of policy??? We used to be, but that was before the enemy decided to cut off heads and use the innocent for target practice.

It's a different world. I'm not sure what it will take to get a moral authority throughout the world.

A good start would be to not use the atrocities of extremist psychopaths as an excuse to commit atrocities ourselves.

[Texan4Auburn 1,626]

Texan4Auburn.....total BS and irrevelant.

You are the one that is full of it, you guys only use the terms and considerations like "American Lives", like they are all equal and worth something when it suits your needs. I didn't realize that relevant was back on the agenda in this forum btw.

See your post #69. Many people that worked in that building held positions that many here would criticize and degrade the individual for given some modern issues such as raising minimum wage, or health insurance, etc etc. Fact they would probably be termed stupid Gruberites that are burdening the system due to expecting to make a living off a job versus a career and using government programs. But today, they are all equal and worthy lives because their death supports your beliefs that we should use torture.

Personally I'm all for the torture of certain individuals, but you know I'm disturbed and off my meds.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

The big reason for this was payback for investigations into suspected leaks by democrat members and staffers of the Senate intelligence committee. Remember when Feinstein wnt off because of that. Anyone remember ole Patrick leaky Leahy? They kicked him off the committee because he couldn't keep the secrets that were shared with them as apart of their oversight role. We haven't had a successful major attack on this country since 9/11. That didn't happen by accident Our intelligence community has worked tirelessly to get the information to prevent this. They didn't get this information by being choirboys. They can never reveal to the public how they foiled these plots.

If security means undermining our civil liberties and stated principles, is it worth it?

[cooltigger21 0]

Torture is watching people wring their hands wandering why someone hates us and bending over backwards to placate these people while these people plot to kill us and get rid of us. Torture is watching these same people constantly borbeating us and saying we are a racist and unjust nation. Torture is hearing we have to empathize with these POS and appease them at every turn. It's watching these people work tirelessly to undermine our military and diminish our ability to defend ourselves. Its watching them cave into Iran and allow them to continue their their nuclear program. Its watching these people not only turning a blind eye to people crossing our borders illegally, many of them hardened criminals, by actively encouraging it. This is torture. You go ask a 9/11 survivor or a family member of a victim how it felt on that day to watch loved ones die in that horrific event.

This nation dropped two atomic bombs on Japan and firebombed Tokyo and other cities. I have zero problem with that. You don't want you nation destroyed, don't start a war. These people we are dealing with are fanatical and will stop at nothing to destroy us. Using women and children is not too much for them. I don't have any more regard for them or their well being than I do a rabid dog. I have more for the dog. The dog couldn't help it. They chose this. Let them live with the consequences of that choice. This is not street criminals we are dealing with here people

[autigeremt 6,613]

The big reason for this was payback for investigations into suspected leaks by democrat members and staffers of the Senate intelligence committee. Remember when Feinstein wnt off because of that. Anyone remember ole Patrick leaky Leahy? They kicked him off the committee because he couldn't keep the secrets that were shared with them as apart of their oversight role. We haven't had a successful major attack on this country since 9/11. That didn't happen by accident Our intelligence community has worked tirelessly to get the information to prevent this. They didn't get this information by being choirboys. They can never reveal to the public how they foiled these plots.

If security means undermining our civil liberties and stated principles, is it worth it?

Again....what are our current principals? These people don't believe in principals anymore.

[TheBlueVue 177]

This was strictly a partisan report which is fine but it is a tad late if you're honest about it. Saxsby Chambliss summed it all up very succinctly when he said..Im paraphrasing - The report is about activities that were stopped 11 years ago that were done without any objection by the majority party at the time. The information has been available for 8 full years while the majority party has sat on it doing nothing but watching as the world burns. In other words, its another politically motivated report. Its always about politics it seems.

[AURaptor 1,122]

This was strictly a partisan report which is fine but it is a tad late if you're honest about it. Saxsby Chambliss summed it all up very succinctly when he said..Im paraphrasing - The report is about activities that were stopped 11 years ago that were done without any objection by the majority party at the time. The information has been available for 8 full years while the majority party has sat on it doing nothing but watching as the world burns.

Not only did everyone know, because they were briefed, but now the Dems act all indignant and horrified, while they are all on board w/ droning terrorists, and their friends and families or who ever happens to be in the vicinity, all w/ out any trial. Obama condemns people to death , from across the ocean, while vilifying those who tried to actually get intel out of captured jihadists, where those operations took months and years to set up.

[alexava 6,973]

The big reason for this was payback for investigations into suspected leaks by democrat members and staffers of the Senate intelligence committee. Remember when Feinstein wnt off because of that. Anyone remember ole Patrick leaky Leahy? They kicked him off the committee because he couldn't keep the secrets that were shared with them as apart of their oversight role. We haven't had a successful major attack on this country since 9/11. That didn't happen by accident Our intelligence community has worked tirelessly to get the information to prevent this. They didn't get this information by being choirboys. They can never reveal to the public how they foiled these plots.

If security means undermining our civil liberties and stated principles, is it worth it?

yes

[cooltigger21 0]

This was strictly a partisan report which is fine but it is a tad late if you're honest about it. Saxsby Chambliss summed it all up very succinctly when he said..Im paraphrasing - The report is about activities that were stopped 11 years ago that were done without any objection by the majority party at the time. The information has been available for 8 full years while the majority party has sat on it doing nothing but watching as the world burns.

Not only did everyone know, because they were briefed, but now the Dems act all indignant and horrified, while they are all on board w/ droning terrorists, and their friends and families or who ever happens to be in the vicinity, all w/ out any trial. Obama condemns people to death , from across the ocean, while vilifying those who tried to actually get intel out of captured jihadists, where those operations took months and years to set up.

this was done to get back at the CIA for investigating di fi and other dems on the intelligence committee.

[AURaptor 1,122]

this was done to get back at the CIA for investigating di fi and other dems on the intelligence committee.

You think ? But wasn't that done at the direction of Obama ?

[cooltigger21 0]

this was done to get back at the CIA for investigating di fi and other dems on the intelligence committee.

You think ? But wasn't that done at the direction of Obama ?

I don't know. They thought someone on the committee was leaking classified information. They investigated it and di fi went off. It was also motivated to paint a bad picture of America and the bush administration.

[AURaptor 1,122]

I don't know. They thought someone on the committee was leaking classified information. They investigated it and di fi went off. It was also motivated to paint a bad picture of America and the bush administration.

And thanks to W's and Rove's policy to not defend their actions or to fight back at the slander and rhetoric from the Left, all that the public hears is 1 side of the story.

[AUUSN 823]

This nation dropped two atomic bombs on Japan and firebombed Tokyo and other cities. I have zero problem with that. You don't want you nation destroyed, don't start a war.

Holy crap, I had to read this three times! Are you so extreme that you actually believe this? You rightfully lament the death of our civilians but fully support the wholesale slaughter of Japanese civilians during the horrific firebombing of Tokyo? Do you even realize that the terrorist rationalized the exact line of thinking you just exhibited?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

This nation dropped two atomic bombs on Japan and firebombed Tokyo and other cities. I have zero problem with that. You don't want you nation destroyed, don't start a war.

Holy crap, I had to read this three times! Are you so extreme that you actually believe this? You rightfully lament the death of our civilians but fully support the wholesale slaughter of Japanese civilians during the horrific firebombing of Tokyo? Do you even realize that the terrorist rationalized the exact line of thinking you just exhibited?

I doubt he has any clue.

[icanthearyou 4,462]

The big reason for this was payback for investigations into suspected leaks by democrat members and staffers of the Senate intelligence committee. Remember when Feinstein wnt off because of that. Anyone remember ole Patrick leaky Leahy? They kicked him off the committee because he couldn't keep the secrets that were shared with them as apart of their oversight role. We haven't had a successful major attack on this country since 9/11. That didn't happen by accident Our intelligence community has worked tirelessly to get the information to prevent this. They didn't get this information by being choirboys. They can never reveal to the public how they foiled these plots.

If security means undermining our civil liberties and stated principles, is it worth it?

Again....what are our current principals? These people don't believe in principals anymore.

Who are these people?

[icanthearyou 4,462]

I don't know. They thought someone on the committee was leaking classified information. They investigated it and di fi went off. It was also motivated to paint a bad picture of America and the bush administration.

And thanks to W's and Rove's policy to not defend their actions or to fight back at the slander and rhetoric from the Left, all that the public hears is 1 side of the story.

As if they could. Their own rhetoric went a little too far.

[AUUSN 823]

I Can’t Be Forgiven for Abu Ghraib

The Torture Report Reminds Us of What America Was

BETHLEHEM, Pa. — I SPENT this semester teaching creative writing at Lehigh University. I’ve been a soldier, a police officer and an interrogator. So hearing students call me “Professor” and assigning homework was a significant change of pace.

But the course’s title, Writing War, kept me from straying too far from the memories that have haunted me over the last decade. I am grateful to Lehigh for the opportunity to teach the course. The school’s willingness to put a veteran in the classroom is the very thing this country needs to be doing in order to collectively process what the last 13 years of war have wrought. But teaching a class about war reminded me daily that I am no college professor.

I was an interrogator at Abu Ghraib. I tortured.

Abu Ghraib dominates every minute of every day for me. In early 2004, workers inside Abu Ghraib were scrambling to cover the murals of Saddam Hussein with a coat of yellowish paint. I accidentally leaned up against one of those walls. I still wear the black fleece jacket with the faded stain. I still smell the paint. I still hear the sounds. I still see the men we called detainees.

Last month, my students at Lehigh read “The Things They Carried” by Tim O’Brien. During class I talked about the things American soldiers carried in Iraq. I brought in a cigar box filled with the trinkets and mementos I had purchased from Iraqi vendors at Baghdad International Airport. I brought along the black fleece jacket.

When I asked the students to share their memories of the release in 2004 of the Abu Ghraib photographs showing the abuse of detainees, I received the sort of looks students give when they think they should know something and are too embarrassed to admit they don’t. Most avoided eye contact, some gave a sort of noncommittal nod, while others went for pure honesty and just yawned.

It was my first encounter with a generation that doesn’t consider the release of the Abu Ghraib photographs to be a critical moment in their lives. I don’t fault them. They were in elementary school at the time. It’s something for history books. It’s something their parents talk about. It’s an answer on a test.

As I looked at their blank faces, I realized I could let myself feel a powerful sense of relief. Abu Ghraib will fade. My transgressions will be forgotten. But only if I allow it.

I’ve published articles in newspapers detailing our abusive treatment of Iraqi detainees. I’ve done interviews on TV and radio. I’ve spoken to groups from Amnesty International, and I’ve confessed everything to a lawyer from the Department of Justice and two agents from the Army’s Criminal Investigation Command. I’ve said everything there is to say. It’s not hard to pretend the best thing to do is put it all behind me.

I stood before the class that day tempted to let apathy soften the painful truths of history. I no longer had to assume the role of the former interrogator at Abu Ghraib. I was a professor at Lehigh University. I could grade papers and say smart things in class. My son could ride the bus to school and talk to his friends about what his father does for a living. I was someone to be proud of.

Eventually I encouraged the students to track down the photos from Abu Ghraib and record their reactions in creative essays. We spent time talking about the abuses that took place and I even exposed them to some of my own writing. They still called me “Professor,” but I suspect they no longer thought of me as one.

Today, the Senate released its torture report. Many people were surprised by what it contained: accounts of waterboardings far more frequent than what had previously been reported, weeklong sleep deprivation, a horrific and humiliating procedure called “rectal rehydration.” I’m not surprised. I assure you there is more; much remains redacted.

Most Americans haven’t read the report. Most never will. But it stands as a permanent reminder of the country we once were.

In some future college classroom, a professor will require her students to read about the things this country did in the early years of the 21st century. She’ll assign portions of the Senate torture report. There will be blank stares and apathetic yawns. There will be essays and writing assignments. The students will come to know that this country isn’t always something to be proud of.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/10/opinion/the-torture-report-reminds-us-of-what-america-was.html?_r=0

[cooltigger21 0]

What this comes down to is this. The liberal Democrats made this report and released it to do two things. One was to score some political points and take some measure of revenge against those that had "spied" on them. Second and more critical is the wish and desire to undermine our intelligence and weaken our position with allies against groups like Isis. These people loathe the CIA and the military and will take any chance to undermine them. The don't like this country and believe we're the bad guys. That's where this idea of empathy for our enemies comes from. It is all our fault for being arrogant and imposing freedom on the rest of the world. We are no better than these groups we're fighting against. In fact they are the victim of our aggression.

[homersapien 11,373]

TT....would you if they had killed your child?

While I'm not TT, it's a potentially valid question. If they had killed my child, I would have no business being involved in such a decision until I was no longer emotionally compromised and was capable of being objective. Once my reason and wits had returned to me, I would fail to see how two wrongs would create a right.

Agreed. I would favor more traditional means of bringing them to justice, but the behavior we engaged in is morally reprehensible.

It is. I'm still not sure which disturbs me the most about it: the fact that it occurred at all, or the fact that it was officially sanctioned and creative legality employed to justify it.

I'd say the latter. Hell, the CIA even sub-contracted for it.

[homersapien 11,373]

It doesn't matter! People have to die before there's a change in policy....and more have to die before there's another policy for change.

I don't think for one minute that the CIA used proper technique to get information. I also think the Colonial Army and the spies for George Washington had a policy that involved unusual methods to gain information. Are we supposed to be above this kind of policy??? We used to be, but that was before the enemy decided to cut off heads and use the innocent for target practice.

It's a different world. I'm not sure what it will take to get a moral authority throughout the world.

The Germans did far worse than that. In fact, we tried (at least some of) them for it.

[homersapien 11,373]

What this comes down to is this. The liberal Democrats made this report and released it to do two things. One was to score some political points and take some measure of revenge against those that had "spied" on them. Second and more critical is the wish and desire to undermine our intelligence and weaken our position with allies against groups like Isis. These people loathe the CIA and the military and will take any chance to undermine them. The don't like this country and believe we're the bad guys. That's where this idea of empathy for our enemies comes from. It is all our fault for being arrogant and imposing freedom on the rest of the world. We are no better than these groups we're fighting against. In fact they are the victim of our aggression.

Did the Republican members of the intelligence committee sign the report?

[homersapien 11,373]

As for those bashing John McCain....I'd be careful treading on that one! He went through HELL and came out the other end. Very few would do such things.

Sorry, no amount of hell gives him the right to bash our country for things HE went through, and things WE didn't do.

I think it gives him the right to criticize our government. You buffoonish extremist really are stupid and hypocritical. If you criticize the government, you are patriotic. If anyone else criticizes the government they are anti-American.

Actually, the First Amendment gives us ALL the right to criticize our government...especial when it condones or supports something that is morally reprehensible.

But yeah, it's hard for me to understand why some cannot see the hypocrisy of "I can and will criticize the government, but you can't and shouldn't!".

Raptorthink? :-\

[homersapien 11,373]

The big reason for this was payback for investigations into suspected leaks by democrat members and staffers of the Senate intelligence committee. Remember when Feinstein wnt off because of that. Anyone remember ole Patrick leaky Leahy? They kicked him off the committee because he couldn't keep the secrets that were shared with them as apart of their oversight role. We haven't had a successful major attack on this country since 9/11. That didn't happen by accident Our intelligence community has worked tirelessly to get the information to prevent this. They didn't get this information by being choirboys. They can never reveal to the public how they foiled these plots.

If security means undermining our civil liberties and stated principles, is it worth it?

Ironic that the same people who demonize our government are quite willing to give it unlimited power (presumably) as long it's used against terrorists.

Now that's a Gruberite!