The Harsin Experiment

[AUght2win 6,838]

"They’re real genuine guys. Coach Harsin — he’s just straight forward. He’s not going to beat around the bush with you. He’s going to tell you the truth." - Dylan Brooks. 

I am so excited about the hire of Coach Harsin. I think it could change not only Auburn football, but potentially, the direction of the sport. Here's what I mean.

The power paradigm in college football recruiting and coaching has completely shifted over the past 20 to 30 years. This aspect of the sport has change more dramatically than any other scouting/management field in all of sports. 

The moral argument of whether or not the changes to recruiting are good or bad are subjective. I personally think the changes have been mostly bad for the kids. What's objectively true is things are waaaaay different.

Bo Schembechler wouldn't have climbed a tree to impress a recruit. Bear Bryant wouldn't have offered an 8th grader. Pat Dye wouldn't have flown non-stop, called non-stop, and texted non-stop to chase 16 year olds down and beg them to come to Auburn. Vince Dooley wouldn't fake being caught up on teenage trends and be rapping on tik tok.

Coaches are now beggars. Shameless, desperate, inauthentic beggars, who will do anything to get a kid in their team's jersey. The modern Power 5 college coach will overpromise, lie, and flatter a kid with no hesitation. 

This has always taken place to a degree. After all, it's recruiting. But there are several factors as to why the dynamic has shifted from players begging to play for a coach, to coaches begging players to come play.

One is money. The insane cash has destroyed these grown men's dignity and integrity. What's Harbaugh making? 8 million a year? Of course he has no problem sleeping over at a high school kid's house if he is drawing a salary like that.

Another is training. Kids are trained year around from grade school. Relative to top projects of old, modern bluechips are on a different planet. They go to all these camps and are very well evaluated not only by recruiting services, but by staff, who have tools like Hudl and YouTube to really weed out who is and isn't forreal. The coaches of old didn't go all-out on 5 stars because they weren't as much of a sure-thing. I mean they STILL aren't 100% sure things now. Imagine back in the old days. 

Third, and maybe the biggest, is technology. I mentioned Hudl and YouTube above. But cell phones, the internet and social media are even bigger factors. Just like the kids they recruit, schools now need to keep up with trends. They blow whichever way the teenage wind does. If you need tangible proof, count the 1000x alternate jerseys teams have now so they can have drip💧. This has trickled all the way to the coaches. Listen to a Kirby Smart team speech. The guy is using lingo and has NO idea what it means. It's very awkward to see these major institutions trying to look cool to 15 year olds - but it's now the norm.

Here's why I think Harsin is interesting. His model worked at a smaller school, in a smaller conference, with more unheralded kids, in a lesser talented region. Can it work in the SEC? 

See, I don't see Harsin sleeping over at a kid's house, or promising a kid they'll bring Pat Sullivan's #7 out of retirement for them to wear. I think this guy is more of an old school alpha. He isn't going to bend his principles. He truly does value culture and isn't going to take guys who will risk poisoning it. He will discipline and won't let things slide.

The question is, in this age of begging and capitulating to the whims of kids, can a guy like that win? I honestly don't know.

I think it's a safe bet that until Harsin wins, he is going to struggle recruiting the 5 stars. There's simply too much ass-kissery from your Kirby's, Mullen's, Kiffin's, and Orgeron's. (I wouldn't put Saban in this group, because he is one of the few coaches who still holds the power in the dynamic - he has such success with the NFL, kids will do whatever it takes and get in line to be a part of his program.) These kids who are prodigies have been told since age 11 that they are going to the league, and can choose their school. And sometimes, they aren't wrong to think that. But it creates ego monsters that aren't used to being told no. It'll be tough for Harsin to convince a kid to come be part of a tough, hard-nosed, alpha-led culture when the kid can go to UGA and be treated like a prince. 

But... there is a chance that some people, like Dylan Brooks, will appreciate the honesty of Harsin. Some parents will love leaving their kid with a guy who is going to actually develop their character. I know I would. I wouldn't want my kid in the hands of a coach who won't discipline him, or who will spoil him. We may win some kids that actually COULD go anywhere.

So just an open question to the board. What is the likelihood a guy like Harsin can make it work in the Power 5? Will he scare off too many kids with the demands of his program, leaving him too devoid of talent to compete? Or will his culture be a hit, and create a hard-nosed juggernaut, reminiscent of old? 

I can't wait to see it. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by AUght2win

[Dual-Threat Rigby 8,673]

I think the second biggest point this post is trying to make is heavily slanted by an individual who is intentionally not trying to see the value in the player empowerment era of athletes, but that's a discussion for another day 

There's still extravagantly hard nosed coaches out there you'd probably love. Pat Fitzgerald has done his damndest to be depicted as such, as of late. You could contend it's worked out for him, could've just been ace development...but either way, it's a stance that's easier for a coach to have when you have peers hovering around that 50th recruiting ranking spot. 

Hard to be Mr. "You either want to be here 100% or the offer's revoked" when you're recruiting against 6 of the top 10

[Sizzle 3,914]

All coaches kiss ass, even Saban. That’s what recruiting is now. There’s videos of Saban electric sliding in a kids living room. He even flies his helicopter to specific recruits high schools. 
Harsin better do what he has to do to get these guys in. These days you can have a top 10 class and still finish 5th or 6th in the SEC

[JDUBB4AU 5,121]

No clue what Harsin is going to do, but one thing is for sure AU will again be a pipeline to the NFL. He fits the professional level. He will develop and teach , he does not seem to be a beggar.  Harsins next stop is the NFL 

Edited February 22, 2021 by JDUBB4AU

[Auhud08 596]

The best coaches arent beggars. Kids can see through that. The best coaches are still honest with the kids about what its going to take for them to succeed at their school. Now, for Auburn, Harsin is different. I do think you had a more salesman approach to recruiting under the Gus regime. Harsin will be more of a coaches approach. Seeing who and what hes offered Harsin understands theirs a value in talent, but even those kids need coaching. Hes gone affer a few high level guys so far but hes also filled the current class out with quality players. 

[McFU 205]

We have all seen what the past few recruiting classes (even highly ranked ones) have produced because we chased stars and not players of need.  I'm all on board with getting lower star players that have a drive and work ethic than players higher stars with egos.

I remember when AU played Bill Snyder's KSU team and barely pulled out a win there.  KSU had a much lower recruiting class than AU but almost won the game.  I believe that was because they played sound fundamental football which has been lacking at AU for awhile.

I think the culture Harsin wants to have here at AU is sound fundamental football where everyone pulls their weight.  If he can do that with mostly 3-4 stars that will immediately improve Auburn's program.  That alone should get us back to dominating the lower ranked teams in the SEC instead of eeking out wins (Arkansas) or even losses (South Carolina).  It may not change the record versus the top teams of the SEC at first but I think if you sprinkle in a few 5 stars here and there then that record could change as well. 

I'm not sure how long it will take to achieve this but I believe that starting with sound fundamental football leads to a better overall football product > then leads to better records > then better recruiting > then competing at the top of the SEC > which finally leads to NFL pipeline.

Granted this is all up in the air as far as how it will play out, but I do see this as the most likely scenario where Auburn can be successful again.  I'm not sure we would ever become the juggernaut UA is but that doesn't mean Auburn can't compete with them regularly.

[Tigerpro2a 5,650]

20 minutes ago, McFU said:

We have all seen what the past few recruiting classes (even highly ranked ones) have produced because we chased stars and not players of need.  I'm all on board with getting lower star players that have a drive and work ethic than players higher stars with egos.

I remember when AU played Bill Snyder's KSU team and barely pulled out a win there.  KSU had a much lower recruiting class than AU but almost won the game.  I believe that was because they played sound fundamental football which has been lacking at AU for awhile.

I think the culture Harsin wants to have here at AU is sound fundamental football where everyone pulls their weight.  If he can do that with mostly 3-4 stars that will immediately improve Auburn's program.  That alone should get us back to dominating the lower ranked teams in the SEC instead of eeking out wins (Arkansas) or even losses (South Carolina).  It may not change the record versus the top teams of the SEC at first but I think if you sprinkle in a few 5 stars here and there then that record could change as well. 

I'm not sure how long it will take to achieve this but I believe that starting with sound fundamental football leads to a better overall football product > then leads to better records > then better recruiting > then competing at the top of the SEC > which finally leads to NFL pipeline.

Granted this is all up in the air as far as how it will play out, but I do see this as the most likely scenario where Auburn can be successful again.  I'm not sure we would ever become the juggernaut UA is but that doesn't mean Auburn can't compete with them regularly.

The reason KSU probably didn't pull it off was Jimmys and Joes. I am on board for development, but we still have to have at least top  10 classes.

[McFU 205]

2 minutes ago, Tigerpro2a said:

The reason KSU probably didn't pull it off was Jimmys and Joes. I am on board for development, but we still have to have at least top  10 classes.

I think we can eventually get there with top 10 classes.  I was mainly trying to point out that Auburn could improve a lot (especially against teams we should beat) just by playing sound fundamental football.

As far as the KSU game, the point was that the game shouldn't have been that close given where the recruiting classes / talent levels were.  The fact is was that close was because KSU played good football, not great but good.  I'm of the belief that a motivated good football team can compete with a team loaded with talent but not developed.  This should bode well playing against LSU and UGA.  To beat UA consistently we will of course need both development and highly ranked recruits.

[Tigerpro2a 5,650]

1 minute ago, McFU said:

I think we can eventually get there with top 10 classes.  I was mainly trying to point out that Auburn could improve a lot (especially against teams we should beat) just by playing sound fundamental football.

As far as the KSU game, the point was that the game shouldn't have been that close given where the recruiting classes / talent levels were.  The fact is was that close was because KSU played good football, not great but good.  I'm of the belief that a motivated good football team can compete with a team loaded with talent but not developed.  This should bode well playing against LSU and UGA.  To beat UA consistently we will of course need both development and highly ranked recruits.

Yes all very good points that I agree with you on. I was just adding that literally the difference in winning and losing often times regardless of how good of coaches you have or how well your players are developed is the actual players and recruiting differences. If KSU was playing with remotely close talent they would have mopped us. 

I do agree that we will see a better prepared and tougher football team regardless of recruiting. If we can recruit top 10 I think we will be a NC contender with The Hars.

[DAG 33,988]

There is a lot of assumptions being made in this post.  There is a thin line between ass kissing and being a part of someone's culture. Like for instance NS electric sliding was not forced, nor was he kissing someone's ass. He was natural in what he was doing and smooth with it. If you win and you are genuine then there is no reason why we cannot get the best available. 

[AUght2win 6,838]

3 hours ago, DAG said:

There is a lot of assumptions being made in this post.  There is a thin line between ass kissing and being a part of someone's culture. Like for instance NS electric sliding was not forced, nor was he kissing someone's ass. He was natural in what he was doing and smooth with it. If you win and you are genuine then there is no reason why we cannot get the best available. 

Electric sliding, having fun within reasonable means, being a salesman within reasonable means is fine. Sleeping over at a recruit's house, or a 50 year old man with a bowl cut saying stuff like "I wanna eat... I want you to eat" is disingenuous and weird. 

9/10 upper echelon, power 5 coaches will be a chameleon to bring in kids. 

[DAG 33,988]

13 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

Electric sliding, having fun within reasonable means, being a salesman within reasonable means is fine. Sleeping over at a recruit's house, or a 50 year old man with a bowl cut saying stuff like "I wanna eat... I want you to eat" is disingenuous and weird. 

9/10 upper echelon, power 5 coaches will be a chameleon to bring in kids. 

That is all true.

My point is those are extremes. The idea that you can just win by developing lower stars is an extreme outlook and playing ps5 for 10 hours to get an  recruit is also extreme. I believe most successful coaches are genuine in their approach, have built a rapport by being successful and winning games to get the best people. I imagine CBH will be in the middle. I don’t know why people are assuming CBH is strictly trying to prove he can develop lower tiers in order to compete . At the end of the day , winning matters the most. People do understand UGA is a premier school, right ? They also have the benefit of being in a recruiting hot bed. So yes, we need to prove we can actually beat the UGAs and LSUs of the world consistently to get the best of the best. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by DAG

[AUght2win 6,838]

9 hours ago, Dual-Threat Rigby said:

I think the second biggest point this post is trying to make is heavily slanted by an individual who is intentionally not trying to see the value in the player empowerment era of athletes, but that's a discussion for another day 

There's still extravagantly hard nosed coaches out there you'd probably love. Pat Fitzgerald has done his damndest to be depicted as such, as of late. You could contend it's worked out for him, could've just been ace development...but either way, it's a stance that's easier for a coach to have when you have peers hovering around that 50th recruiting ranking spot. 

Hard to be Mr. "You either want to be here 100% or the offer's revoked" when you're recruiting against 6 of the top 10

Player empowerment is one way to put it. Temporary exploitation is another. 

Some of the changes have been good. NLI releases, more options in schools, more visits for kids, better facilities, better living situations on campus, better training, more exposure, stipends. All that has been great.

But then it enters into spoiling kids to their own detriment. Pre-1990 college coaches were seen more in the mold of high school coaches - builders of young men. So for the most part, there was at least a knowledge that even if a kid doesn't make the pros, he would at least come away with a degree and the character tools to live a successful life.

Now college football is purely money making entertainment and NFL prep. Do you think Kirby Smart cares if the kids he is recruiting are equipped for life outside of football?

Kids openly say they are making business decisions in their choices. They are all counting on the NFL, because they are all told it's a certainty. They are sold a bill of goods. Because the odds are even lower than they used to be (because of more teams and college prospects) of making a career out of professional football.

So after 3 or 4 years of study in a BS major that the player doesn't even care about, with little to no retention because there are 1000x aides and tutors to push you through, and coaches who only invest in you as a player, not a person... what happens when you go undrafted and get cut from rookie camp after a week? 

You end up with kids at 22 that are basically still the same boys they were at 18 when they arrived. Because the current system cares about using up their physical talents, not their futures as men. 

[toddc 13,194]

I’m old and set in my ways so I like the old school approach for the head coach.; and let Caddie and Zack and Corn represent the new approach.

[AUght2win 6,838]

3 minutes ago, DAG said:

That is all true.

My point is those are extremes. The idea that you can just win by developing lower stars is an extreme outlook and playing ps5 for 10 hours to get an  recruit is also extreme. I believe most successful coaches are genuine in their approach, have built a rapport by being successful and winning games to get the best people. I imagine CBH will be in the middle. I don’t know why people are assuming CBH is strictly trying to prove he can develop lower tiers in order to compete . 

Nah I'm not saying Harsin will refuse talent or go out of his way to be obstinate. Being a salesman is still part of his job and he knows he needs talent. 

But I do think he would turn kids down like Duke Williams or Sean White, if their character seems too incompatible. 

I also just respectfully disagree most coaches are genuine now. I mean lying has been so normalized in that profession. Coaches will promise they aren't going anywhere at podiums then leave a day later. They'll falsely promise to utilize kids (I'll still never understand how Gus got tight end recruits after year 4). They'll block transfers. They'll pull offers or stonewall kids (see Tennessee lately). It's just a business where most are a bit sociopathic.

I mean, Saban has done some reprehensible stuff in terms of integrity (Leaving Miami the way he did, Darius Philon, taking Jonathan Taylor, feigning player safety to stop HUNH only to utilize it). 

In daily life, if we knew a person who had done things THAT unashamedly dishonest and reckless, we would avoid them at all costs. They'd be unhirable in most fields. But in college football, he is seen as one of the more respected straight-shooters. It's a filthy business these days to be a HC.

[AUght2win 6,838]

5 hours ago, Auhud08 said:

The best coaches arent beggars. Kids can see through that. 

They really can't though. Or else there wouldn't be 1800 kids in the transfer portal.

[DAG 33,988]

1 minute ago, AUght2win said:

Nah I'm not saying Harsin will refuse talent or go out of his way to be obstinate. Being a salesman is still part of his job and he knows he needs talent. 

But I do think he would turn kids down like Duke Williams or Sean White, if their character seems too incompatible. 

I also just respectfully disagree most coaches are genuine now. I mean lying has been so normalized in that profession. Coaches will promise they aren't going anywhere at podiums then leave a day later. They'll falsely promise to utilize kids (I'll still never understand how Gus got tight end recruits after year 4). They'll block transfers. They'll pull offers or stonewall kids (see Tennessee lately). It's just a business where most are a bit sociopathic.

I mean, Saban has done some reprehensible stuff in terms of integrity (Leaving Miami the way he did, Darius Philon, taking Jonathan Taylor, feigning player safety to stop HUNH only to utilize it). 

In daily life, if we knew a person who had done things THAT unashamedly dishonest and reckless, we would avoid them at all costs. They'd be unhirable in most fields. But in college football, he is seen as one of the more respected straight-shooters. It's a filthy business these days to be a HC.

I didn’t say most coaches . I said most SUCCESSFUL coaches. You can say what you want about NS, but high majority of his players respect the hell out of him. Not only his players but fellow superstar athletes. Someone who is not genuine is not getting that type of respect .

[AUght2win 6,838]

I should note I don't believe Harsin will intentionally prioritize 3 stars and develop them. He WANTS talent, obviously. The question is whether the talent will want what he is offering.

If Harsin wins, then yes. If you build it they will come. If you put kids in the league, they will come. 

But it's an egg before the chicken situation. He'll have to win, I think. He come in like a Pruitt and grab 5 stars everywhere, selling kids to come be a part of a wild west lawless program. 

[AUght2win 6,838]

4 minutes ago, DAG said:

I didn’t say most coaches . I said most SUCCESSFUL coaches. You can say what you want about NS, but high majority of his players respect the hell out of him. Not only his players but fellow superstar athletes. Someone who is not genuine is not getting that type of respect .

Do you know about the Philon stuff? The grey shirts? The Cam Robinson ordeal? Claiming he vetted Jonathan Taylor when he didn't even call Richt? Processing duds while pardoning studs? 

Saban is slimy. He is respected for winning, and the voices of support are from guys he made millionaires. If you look at his whole body of work, he has less integrity than the average man on the street.

It isn't extraordinarily slimy in his field. But point being, it's a slimy field.

[AU9377 4,935]

Six one, half dozen the other.  These same arguments and revelations are made every time there is a coaching change.    The new coach is more "relatable" to players or values "talent over recruiting rankings."  Sure they do.  Let that same recruiting class be ranked #23 next year and the same people will be calling for heads.  Every staff recruits the best players they can get the ear of.  If they win, they maintain momentum and the perception of future success being likely brings in more talent.  If that perception changes, so do their successes in recruiting.

[DAG 33,988]

21 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

Do you know about the Philon stuff? The grey shirts? The Cam Robinson ordeal? Claiming he vetted Jonathan Taylor when he didn't even call Richt? Processing duds while pardoning studs? 

Saban is slimy. He is respected for winning, and the voices of support are from guys he made millionaires. If you look at his whole body of work, he has less integrity than the average man on the street.

It isn't extraordinarily slimy in his field. But point being, it's a slimy field.

Call it what you want. I have hardly heard any of his previous players bash him. I have seen people like Charles Barkley and Kobe Bryant speak highly of him. I think I will trust their judgement of character. 

[autigeremt 6,635]

Coach Harsin is going to prove his metal and he's already doing that in workouts. Dude is a beast...machine and the players love it. 

[DAG 33,988]

25 minutes ago, AUght2win said:

Do you know about the Philon stuff? The grey shirts? The Cam Robinson ordeal? Claiming he vetted Jonathan Taylor when he didn't even call Richt? Processing duds while pardoning studs? 

Saban is slimy. He is respected for winning, and the voices of support are from guys he made millionaires. If you look at his whole body of work, he has less integrity than the average man on the street.

It isn't extraordinarily slimy in his field. But point being, it's a slimy field.

Yes, he made a lot of black males, who came from nothing millionaires. How horrible haha.  
 

 

 

[EagleEye67 1,939]

8 minutes ago, autigeremt said:

Coach Harsin is going to prove his metal and he's already doing that in workouts. Dude is a beast...machine and the players love it. 

Good to hear about the metal...Im a Killswitch Engage guy myself.

[AUght2win 6,838]

7 minutes ago, DAG said:

Yes, he made a lot of black males, who came from nothing millionaires. How horrible haha.  
 

 

 

So has Urban Meyer. So has Art Briles. So has Hugh Freeze. So has Bobby Petrino's. A man's success is not indicative of his character.