Biblical Marriage

[Leftfield 2,660]

15 hours ago, NolaAuTiger said:

I have a corollary question. I know you’re a proponent of environmental action and you support combatting climate change. Are any of your beliefs in this regard (relative to the environment/climate change) undergirded by a concern for future generations? If so, then, as an atheist, why is it rational to view the world beyond your own life time? What value does the atheist see in sacrificial/costly action for the sake of future generations? 

Honest question: do you truly see atheists and agnostics in this light, i.e. rejecting a higher power due to self-interest? If so, I'm very surprised, but it also explains quite a bit if many share your view.

There is absolutely nothing illogical about attempting to better the world for future generations. Just because one does not believe in a higher power per se, that does not mean that one rejects anything greater than themselves. Children would be an obvious reason to do so, but even without, it's perfectly reasonable to expect a person to strive for the improvement and betterment of others. I actually think it's more irrational to not want that, as evolutionarily speaking it is detrimental to our survival in the first place.

All Nihilists are Atheists, but not all Atheists are Nihilists.

[SaltyTiger 7,861]

3 minutes ago, icanthearyou said:

I am sincere.  It is your choice to reject or, accept.  I am not trying to make you angry.

Well I reject your frequent squirrelly apologies and I am not angry.

[icanthearyou 4,463]

12 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Well I reject your frequent squirrelly apologies and I am not angry.

You sound angry.  I suppose I misread.  

[homersapien 11,447]

3 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

No point actually. You do believe the Bible is a myth and creates harm don’t you?

Yes it's myth.  Some of it is undoubtedly true, but the substantive stuff - like miracles - is myth.

The bible itself does not create harm. But a lot of people who believe it is the "word of God" certainly do.

Edited May 20, 2023 by homersapien

[DKW 86 7,440]

23 hours ago, icanthearyou said:

Only a man without character would ask such a question.  Only someone purely self serving would pose such a question.

That is just opinion. If there is no God, then the rest of this discussion is just the opinion of 1:7.5BN people all with equally valid opinions. 

What if someone follows the vegan way and then mandates that everyone in the world be vegan?
What if someone follows the Communist way and then mandates that everyone in the world be Communist?
What if someone follows the Thuggee way and then mandates that everyone in the world be Thuggee?
What if someone follows the Pedophile way and then mandates that everyone in the world be Pedophile?
What if, like the NAZIs, one racial group decides that it is superior and should dominate the world AND has the military means to do so? 
Does that I mean that is just as valid as any other methodology. Does that make it right?

There are so many standards set by man, ALL EQUALLY VALID, RIGHTEOUS, FAIR, ETC. How can anyone make a decision on what is even a system of judging what is a better way of thinking and life? Do we focus on the Earth? On just mankind? How about just our nation, our state, our county, our city? Geography? We have huge differences in values across the globe. In India, they justify the Caste System. In a "Democratic" system, their ways would trump ours because they out number us 4:1. So then, would that not make it fair?

What is even the basis for decisions? The basis for judgment? Most of the world would likely roundly sneer at "American Values." In the rest of the world the wealthy and biggest tits don't rule everyone else. So not only who makes decisions is in play. Also HOW we make decisions is in play.

Edited May 21, 2023 by DKW 86

[icanthearyou 4,463]

1 hour ago, DKW 86 said:

That is just opinion. If there is no God, then the rest of this discussion is just the opinion of 1:7.5BN people all with equally valid opinions. 

What if someone follows the vegan way and then mandates that everyone in the world be vegan?
What if someone follows the Communist way and then mandates that everyone in the world be Communist?
What if someone follows the Thuggee way and then mandates that everyone in the world be Thuggee?
What if someone follows the Pedophile way and then mandates that everyone in the world be Pedophile?
What if, like the NAZIs, one racial group decides that it is superior and should dominate the world AND has the military means to do so? 
Does that I mean that is just as valid as any other methodology. Does that make it right?

There are so many standards set by man, ALL EQUALLY VALID, RIGHTEOUS, FAIR, ETC. How can anyone make a decision on what is even a system of judging what is a better way of thinking and life? Do we focus on the Earth? On just mankind? How about just our nation, our state, our county, our city? Geography? We have huge differences in values across the globe. In India, they justify the Caste System. In a "Democratic" system, their ways would trump ours because they out number us 4:1. So then, would that not make it fair?

What is even the basis for decisions? The basis for judgment? Most of the world would likely roundly sneer at "American Values." In the rest of the world the wealthy and biggest tits don't rule everyone else. So not only who makes decisions is in play. Also HOW we make decisions is in play.

I suppose.  That certainly explains why so many want God to be an authoritarian dictator.  They obviously have no real concept of right and wrong.  I suppose God becomes their only constraining force.  However, IMHO, if your motivations are not about love, justice, truth,,, you do not really know Jesus.

Still, regardless of religion, having no concern for the future, for those who will live in the future, is a basic failure of character and, shows a complete indifference towards humanity.

 

[Leftfield 2,660]

On 5/19/2023 at 9:01 PM, NolaAuTiger said:

I have a corollary question. I know you’re a proponent of environmental action and you support combatting climate change. Are any of your beliefs in this regard (relative to the environment/climate change) undergirded by a concern for future generations? If so, then, as an atheist, why is it rational to view the world beyond your own life time? What value does the atheist see in sacrificial/costly action for the sake of future generations? 

Honest question: do you truly see atheists and agnostics in this light, i.e. rejecting a higher power due to self-interest? If so, I'm very surprised, but it also explains quite a bit if many share your view.

There is absolutely nothing illogical about attempting to better the world for future generations. Just because one does not believe in a higher power per se, that does not mean that one rejects anything greater than themselves. Children would be an obvious reason to do so, but even without, it's perfectly reasonable to expect a person to strive for the improvement and betterment of others. I actually think it's more irrational to not want that, as evolutionarily speaking it is detrimental to our survival in the first place.

All Nihilists are Atheists, but not all Atheists are Nihilists.

---------------------

@NolaAuTigerjust wanted to follow up on this, as I would genuinely like to know if the bolded part is accurate. If it is, it would help to understand where some people are coming from in discussions on this. Thanks.

 

[SaltyTiger 7,861]

On 5/20/2023 at 2:18 PM, homersapien said:

Yes it's myth.  Some of it is undoubtedly true, but the substantive stuff - like miracles - is myth.

The bible itself does not create harm. But a lot of people who believe it is the "word of God" certainly do.

“Myth” is only your opinion. You don’t know. 

Yes a lot of people use the “word of God” or Bible  to create harm. The Bible clearly says you are correct.
 

 

[homersapien 11,447]

 

9 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

“Myth” is only your opinion. You don’t know.

Question:  Do you think story of Noah's ark is literally true?

[SaltyTiger 7,861]

Just now, homersapien said:

 

Question:  Do you think story of Noah's ark is literally true?

Genesis is my favorite book in the Bible. Simple story of creation and God could have done things any way he chose. Made it appear anyway he chose. Was the ark story true? Maybe and maybe not. I don’t think it is important to form an opinion. 

[homersapien 11,447]

42 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Genesis is my favorite book in the Bible. Simple story of creation and God could have done things any way he chose. Made it appear anyway he chose. Was the ark story true? Maybe and maybe not. I don’t think it is important to form an opinion. 

Actually, that's a passable definition of "myth". 

Edited May 31, 2023 by homersapien

[SaltyTiger 7,861]

4 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Actually, that's a passable definition of "myth". 

Sure, if that is the way you intend to take it. Why does it matter to you?

[arein0 977]

53 minutes ago, homersapien said:

 

Question:  Do you think story of Noah's ark is literally true?

There are tales of an eerily similar great global flood in many different ancient cultures throughout the world. Could this have been a story passed down from generation to generation via word of mouth?

[aubiefifty 16,906]

1 hour ago, SaltyTiger said:

Genesis is my favorite book in the Bible. Simple story of creation and God could have done things any way he chose. Made it appear anyway he chose. Was the ark story true? Maybe and maybe not. I don’t think it is important to form an opinion. 

i love your first couple of sentences. while i am not big on faith i know in my heart some supreme being or god made all this. how does something like this just happen? this world is an amazing thing. animals as well. all the bits and pieces that fit together so well to form life is an amazing thing. it is so complex when you really pay attention it is a beautiful and sometimes scary thing. i love whomever created this world and blessed us with life.this is simple to me. where i lose sight of stuff is how did god get here? everything has to start or has a beginning right? i have thought of this off and on for many years and all i can come up with is we or at least i am not smart enough to know. anyway your statements clicked with me because of its simplicity.

[homersapien 11,447]

11 hours ago, arein0 said:

There are tales of an eerily similar great global flood in many different ancient cultures throughout the world. Could this have been a story passed down from generation to generation via word of mouth?

Of course. 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/evidence-for-a-flood-102813115/

Edited May 31, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,447]

11 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Sure, if that is the way you intend to take it. Why does it matter to you?

It doesn't "matter". 

I am just entertaining myself on the forum by debating ideas.  Presumably, just like you are.

I will admit I find the proposition that others can literally accept mythical biblical stories such as Noah's ark as feasible fascinating, if a little disturbing.

Edited May 31, 2023 by homersapien

[Leftfield 2,660]

42 minutes ago, homersapien said:

I will admit I find the proposition that others can literally accept mythical biblical stories such as Noah's ark as feasible fascinating, if a little disturbing.

Tell some people Noah lived until he was 950 and they're good, but when you tell them the Sun is four billion years old......

 

[I_M4_AU 8,002]

13 hours ago, SaltyTiger said:

Genesis is my favorite book in the Bible. Simple story of creation and God could have done things any way he chose. Made it appear anyway he chose. Was the ark story true? Maybe and maybe not. I don’t think it is important to form an opinion. 

If you have ever flown over the western part of the US at 35000ft, you come away with the feeling it was underwater for several years.  It is up to you to believe why.

[Son of A Tiger 561]

42 minutes ago, Leftfield said:

Tell some people Noah lived until he was 950 and they're good, but when you tell them the Sun is four billion years old......

 

Four billion is peanuts. The Webb telescope is showing pictures of things 50 billion light years away. Anyone who sees these must surely believe the universe was created by a supreme being that we aren't even close to be able to comprehend. For a lot of people God is too small and unfortunately won't realize that until they face HIm on judgement day.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Son of A Tiger

[aubiefifty 16,906]

56 minutes ago, Son of A Tiger said:

Four billion is peanuts. The Webb telescope is showing pictures of things 50 billion light years away. Anyone who sees these must surely believe the universe was created by a supreme being that we aren't even close to be able to comprehend. For a lot of people God is too small and unfortunately won't realize that until they face HIm on judgement day.

i agree with most of that. i am not so sure god is judgemental and all that. you know the christians thought their god was too sweet when compared to odin and all those other badass gods so they decided to throw a little toughness in there. i think god gave of something beautiful and the tools to work with and left us to our own. if i burn for it so be it. but i will not compromise the truths in my heart so if i burn i burn. but hey! i also do not believe in hell either with it's giant red spiders devouring non believers.

[CoffeeTiger 5,179]

1 hour ago, aubiefifty said:

i agree with most of that. i am not so sure god is judgemental and all that. you know the christians thought their god was too sweet when compared to odin and all those other badass gods so they decided to throw a little toughness in there. i think god gave of something beautiful and the tools to work with and left us to our own. if i burn for it so be it. but i will not compromise the truths in my heart so if i burn i burn. but hey! i also do not believe in hell either with it's giant red spiders devouring non believers.

If the hell of the Bible is actually real then we're going to be in very good company because billions upon billions of people will end up there. many of them kind, compassionate, loving and caring people on earth who's only crime was not believing in the 'right' religious book and the 'right' religion. 

 

 

 

[Son of A Tiger 561]

2 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

i agree with most of that. i am not so sure god is judgemental and all that. you know the christians thought their god was too sweet when compared to odin and all those other badass gods so they decided to throw a little toughness in there. i think god gave of something beautiful and the tools to work with and left us to our own. if i burn for it so be it. but i will not compromise the truths in my heart so if i burn i burn. but hey! i also do not believe in hell either with it's giant red spiders devouring non believers.

Yep God gave us Jesus Christ to die in a horrible way so that our sins can be forgiven if we believe and follow Him. A lot is written but John 3:16 makes it so simple a child can understand it.

[SaltyTiger 7,861]

5 hours ago, homersapien said:

It doesn't "matter". 

I am just entertaining myself on the forum by debating ideas.  Presumably, just like you are.

I will admit I find the proposition that others can literally accept mythical biblical stories such as Noah's ark as feasible fascinating, if a little disturbing.

Of course you find it disturbing when you believe it is myth. 

[SaltyTiger 7,861]

22 hours ago, aubiefifty said:

everything has to start or has a beginning right

Accept things we are not capable or supposed to understand and carry on. Can you understand never ending? We are programmed start/finish, birth/death… smoke a doobie and look at the sky, no end.

 

[Leftfield 2,660]

19 minutes ago, SaltyTiger said:

Accept things we are not capable or supposed to understand and carry on. Can you understand never ending? We are programmed start/finish, birth/death… smoke a doobie and look at the sky, no end.

 

Except that the sky does end. It took us a long time to find it, but we did. 

Right now we can't grasp the infinite. That doesn't mean we never will, unless we never try.