Is Anti-Zionism antisemitism?

[DKW 86 7,425]

By 1975 a weakened America under Ford allowed a resolution to pass in the UN that literally said that "Zionism is Racism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_3379

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on 10 November 1975 "determine[d] that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination".

 

Response

Israel

In his address to the United Nations General Assembly the same day, 10 November 1975, Israeli Ambassador Chaim Herzog stated:^[7]

"I can point with pride to the Arab ministers who have served in my government; to the Arab deputy speaker of my Parliament; to Arab officers and men serving of their own volition in our border and police defense forces, frequently commanding Jewish troops; to the hundreds of thousands of Arabs from all over the Middle East crowding the cities of Israel every year; to the thousands of Arabs from all over the Middle East coming for medical treatment to Israel; to the peaceful coexistence which has developed; to the fact that Arabic is an official language in Israel on a par with Hebrew; to the fact that it is as natural for an Arab to serve in public office in Israel as it is incongruous to think of a Jew serving in any public office in an Arab country, indeed being admitted to many of them. Is that racism? It is not! That ... is Zionism."

Herzog ended his statement, while holding a copy of the resolution, with these words:

"For us, the Jewish people, this resolution based on hatred, falsehood and arrogance, is devoid of any moral or legal value. For us, the Jewish people, this is no more than a piece of paper and we shall treat it as such."

As he concluded his speech, Herzog tore the resolution in half.

The name of "The UN avenue" in Haifa, Jerusalem and Tel Aviv was switched to "The Zionism avenue" as a response to the UN's decision.^[8]

United States

Before the vote, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the United States ambassador to the United Nations, warned that, "The United Nations is about to make anti-Semitism international law."^[9] He delivered a speech against the resolution, including the famous line, "[The United States] does not acknowledge, it will not abide by, it will never acquiesce in this infamous act ... A great evil has been loosed upon the world."^[10]

In Campbell, California, in the United States, a group of high school students attempted to solicit signatures on the premises of a local shopping center for a petition against Resolution 3379. The result was the landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision in Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins (1980) that supported states' rights to expand the exercise of free speech, which California held was legal in what were considered public areas of a shopping mall.^[11]

Mexico's vote in favor of the resolution led some United States Jews to organize a tourism boycott of Mexico. This ended after Mexican foreign minister Emilio Óscar Rabasa made a trip to Israel (Rabasa shortly afterward was forced to resign).^[12][13]

[DKW 86 7,425]

To answer the question above: Is being Anti-Zionist mean you are  Anti-Semitic? According to Daniel Patrick Moynihan, as legendary a statesman as we had in the 20th Century, the answer is yes. 

Before the vote, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the United States ambassador to the United Nations, warned that, ^{"The United nations is about to make anti-semitism international law."[9]} He delivered a speech against the resolution, including the famous line, "[The United States] does not acknowledge, it will not abide by, it will never acquiesce in this infamous act ... A great evil has been loosed upon the world."^[10] 

Resolution 3379 was repealed in 1991. 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by DKW 86

[TexasTiger 12,918]

22 minutes ago, DKW 86 said:

To answer the question above: Is being Anti-Zionist mean you are  Anti-Semitic? According to Daniel Patrick Moynihan, as legendary a statesman as we had in the 20th Century, the answer is yes. 

Before the vote, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the United States ambassador to the United Nations, warned that, ^{"The United nations is about to make anti-semitism international law."[9]} He delivered a speech against the resolution, including the famous line, "[The United States] does not acknowledge, it will not abide by, it will never acquiesce in this infamous act ... A great evil has been loosed upon the world."^[10] 

Resolution 3379 was repealed in 1991. 

 

You haven’t included where he actually said that. One can strongly disagree with the statement that Zionism is racism and still not be a Zionist. The ADL recognizes there are Jews who aren’t Zionists— are you saying these Jews are anti-Semitic?

[DKW 86 7,425]

23 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

You haven’t included where he actually said that. One can strongly disagree with the statement that Zionism is racism and still not be a Zionist. The ADL recognizes there are Jews who aren’t Zionists— are you saying these Jews are anti-Semitic?

I forgot you cant read. DPM's statement came on the floor of the UN Genl Assembly.

Non-Zionists are of course not Anti-Semitic. 

I have been a part of these discussions for years. Let's just say that you should presuppose that Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semitic. Its not that all are Anti-Semitic. Its just that all Anti-Semitics are Anti-Zionists. I cant number the people that hide behind being Anti-Zionists that are really just Anti-Semitic but are just afraid of being labeled for what they are.

Edited October 10, 2023 by DKW 86

[I_M4_AU 7,850]

9 hours ago, W.E.D said:

No, where did I even come close to saying this. 

You didn’t.  I just wanted clarification.  Thank you for that.

Why the difference between Palestinians in the West Bank and those in the Gaza Strip?  Is Fatah that much different than Hamas.  It seems like the West Bank is more isolated.

[TexasTiger 12,918]

7 hours ago, DKW 86 said:

I forgot you cant read. DPM's statement came on the floor of the UN Genl Assembly.

Non-Zionists are of course not Anti-Semitic. 

I have been a part of these discussions for years. Let's just say that you should presuppose that Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semitic. Its not that all are Anti-Semitic. Its just that all Anti-Semitics are Anti-Zionists. I cant number the people that hide behind being Anti-Zionists that are really just Anti-Semitic but are just afraid of being labeled for what they are.

I forgot you’re insane. My bad.

BTW, There’s actually anti-Semitic right wingers that are pro-Zionism. You’ve probably been to church with a few over the years. Went to school with some, too. Maybe even see ‘em at family reunions.

[W.E.D 11,070]

1 hour ago, I_M4_AU said:

You didn’t.  I just wanted clarification.  Thank you for that.

Why the difference between Palestinians in the West Bank and those in the Gaza Strip?  Is Fatah that much different than Hamas.  It seems like the West Bank is more isolated.

Here's a summarization of the two groups

Quote

HAMAS VS FATAH

• Ideology:
  Hamas – Islamist
  Fatah – Secular 
• Strategy towards Israel: 
  Hamas – Armed resistance
  Fatah – Negotiations
• Objectives: 
  Hamas – Does not recognize Israel, but accepts a Palestinian state on 1967 borders 
  Fatah – Recognizes Israel, wants to build a state on 1967 borders 

 

I think a description of each area leads to understanding some differences between the groups. 

Population demographics between Gaza and the West Bank are pretty similar.  Both are extremely young, half the residents are children.  Both populations are growing fast. 

A bad analogy would probably be Gaza is the DC with the political power and West Bank is like California with a better economy, jobs, etc.  Israel has had both under military occupation for the last ~15 years (current conflict). 

Gaza is an open air prison (IDF's words).  Egypt blocks access south out of Gaza, Israel blocks the rest.  Israel controls all access of water, electricty, food, goods, etc into Gaza.  They barely let anyone leave, hence the open air prison.  It has about 2/3 the density of Manhattan.  2.5 million people living in 140 sq miles.  I believe 2/3 live in poverty.  Hamas has pushed Fatah out of Gaza.  People in Gaza support Hama more than the West Bank.  IDK how accurate, but google search tells me mid 50% approval vs like 48-50.

West Bank has more freedom of movement.  Jewish Israeli can enter and have different security access/ability to enter than Palestinians.  West Bank has more jobs and a better economy, but Gazan residents can't travel here.  To the bad analogy above, Hama rules both areas, but has little to no access into the West Bank.  But still, the west bank is under Military occupation.  Palestinians have reduce rights based on their religion.  Their homes & land are confiscated and given to  Their water supply/electricity/goods movement is heavily controlled and restricted by the Israeli gov't.

So both populations have about 50% of their populations entire lives living under military occupations in ghettoized areas as an oppressed group.  Gaza is under much heavier oppressions, much harsher living environments....which seems to understand why they lean towards the Hamas support and violence b/c their current living conditions.  What's more, ~6500 Palestinians civilians have been murdered by IDF during this conflict.  So violence begets violence.  West Bank residents have more freedom and economic viability (still oppressed and restricted vs Israeli Jews) so it makes sense they are less likely to support Hamas and lean towards Fatah ideology, but they have zero political power.

To the last comment, Gaza is heavily isolated b/c there is nearly no inflow or outflow of people and is treated as a military open air prison 

[TexasTiger 12,918]

Here’s a helpful history of the region:

https://www.nzz.ch/english/israeli-palestinian-conflict-how-the-political-maps-have-changed-ld.1664125

[I_M4_AU 7,850]

I wonder if the ADL has changed their stance since Friday/Saturday.  Here is Jonathan Greenblatt on MSNBC saying the attacks on Israeli’s were barbaric.  It seems anti Zionism is a thinly veiled phrase for antisemitism.

 

 

[homersapien 11,381]

On 10/10/2023 at 2:30 AM, DKW 86 said:

I forgot you cant read....

 

Can always count on you inserting your obnoxious little version of arrogant iconoclasm. 

[homersapien 11,381]

On 10/10/2023 at 9:36 AM, TexasTiger said:

BTW, There’s actually anti-Semitic right wingers that are pro-Zionism. You’ve probably been to church with a few over the years. Went to school with some, too. Maybe even see ‘em at family reunions.

Unless I missed it, the forum - so far - has been relatively free from descriptions of this conflict as "biblical". 

Let's not spark it.

Edited October 12, 2023 by homersapien

[homersapien 11,381]

On 10/10/2023 at 10:42 AM, W.E.D said:

Here's a summarization of the two groups

 

I think a description of each area leads to understanding some differences between the groups. 

Population demographics between Gaza and the West Bank are pretty similar.  Both are extremely young, half the residents are children.  Both populations are growing fast. 

A bad analogy would probably be Gaza is the DC with the political power and West Bank is like California with a better economy, jobs, etc.  Israel has had both under military occupation for the last ~15 years (current conflict). 

Gaza is an open air prison (IDF's words).  Egypt blocks access south out of Gaza, Israel blocks the rest.  Israel controls all access of water, electricty, food, goods, etc into Gaza.  They barely let anyone leave, hence the open air prison.  It has about 2/3 the density of Manhattan.  2.5 million people living in 140 sq miles.  I believe 2/3 live in poverty.  Hamas has pushed Fatah out of Gaza.  People in Gaza support Hama more than the West Bank.  IDK how accurate, but google search tells me mid 50% approval vs like 48-50.

West Bank has more freedom of movement.  Jewish Israeli can enter and have different security access/ability to enter than Palestinians.  West Bank has more jobs and a better economy, but Gazan residents can't travel here.  To the bad analogy above, Hama rules both areas, but has little to no access into the West Bank.  But still, the west bank is under Military occupation.  Palestinians have reduce rights based on their religion.  Their homes & land are confiscated and given to  Their water supply/electricity/goods movement is heavily controlled and restricted by the Israeli gov't.

So both populations have about 50% of their populations entire lives living under military occupations in ghettoized areas as an oppressed group.  Gaza is under much heavier oppressions, much harsher living environments....which seems to understand why they lean towards the Hamas support and violence b/c their current living conditions.  What's more, ~6500 Palestinians civilians have been murdered by IDF during this conflict.  So violence begets violence.  West Bank residents have more freedom and economic viability (still oppressed and restricted vs Israeli Jews) so it makes sense they are less likely to support Hamas and lean towards Fatah ideology, but they have zero political power.

To the last comment, Gaza is heavily isolated b/c there is nearly no inflow or outflow of people and is treated as a military open air prison 

Just goes to prove that the laws of physics can can sometimes apply directly to sociology and politics:  "For every reaction, there is an equal an opposite reaction."

The ultimate tragedy is that most - if not all - the people involved just want to live in peace and prosperity.

[W.E.D 11,070]

19 minutes ago, homersapien said:

Just goes to prove that the laws of physics can can sometimes apply directly to sociology and politics:  "For every reaction, there is an equal an opposite reaction."

The ultimate tragedy is that most - if not all - the people involved just want to live in peace and prosperity.

Yes, I believe most people want to live peacefully.  Polls on the hopes of that happening has tanked.  Both group leaderships are fanatical in their viewpoints and both of their actions result in the killing of thousands of innocent civilians.

But it's not isolated to the leaders/militant arms either.  There are settler violence against Palestinians in the west bank.  Killing civilians, then attacking their funeral the next day and killing more.

[TexasTiger 12,918]

On 10/10/2023 at 11:41 AM, I_M4_AU said:

I wonder if the ADL has changed their stance since Friday/Saturday.  Here is Jonathan Greenblatt on MSNBC saying the attacks on Israeli’s were barbaric.  It seems anti Zionism is a thinly veiled phrase for antisemitism.

 

 

Knows any other folks who describe those who disagree with their ideology as “evil” or  “-ist.” Do we all get to decide how to definitively and authoritatively label those who don’t hold our views?

[homersapien 11,381]

19 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Knows any other folks who describe those who disagree with their ideology as “evil”?

Obviously, "Gott mit uns".  

[TexasTiger 12,918]

On 10/10/2023 at 11:41 AM, I_M4_AU said:

I wonder if the ADL has changed their stance since Friday/Saturday.  Here is Jonathan Greenblatt on MSNBC saying the attacks on Israeli’s were barbaric.  It seems anti Zionism is a thinly veiled phrase for antisemitism.

 

 

This Holocaust survivor who was once a Zionist, disagrees. Give him a listen:

 

[I_M4_AU 7,850]

14 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

This Holocaust survivor who was once a Zionist, disagrees. Give him a listen:

 

He is entitled to his opinion, he’s earned it.

[TexasTiger 12,918]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

He is entitled to his opinion, he’s earned it.

Did you listen?

[I_M4_AU 7,850]

2 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Did you listen?

Yes.  I liked the part where he said Israeli pilot refusing to fly over Gaza.  From the news, it must not be many that refuse.  The man seems to be a good liberal, similar to Josh Kruger in Philly.

[TexasTiger 12,918]

3 hours ago, I_M4_AU said:

Yes.  I liked the part where he said Israeli pilot refusing to fly over Gaza.  From the news, it must not be many that refuse.  The man seems to be a good liberal, similar to Josh Kruger in Philly.

Do you think he’s antisemitic?

[homersapien 11,381]

This thread is really exposing the simple-minded amongst us.

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by homersapien

[I_M4_AU 7,850]

25 minutes ago, TexasTiger said:

Do you think he’s antisemitic?

No, like most liberals he doesn’t like his government.  Most Jews can see the difference between Anti-Zionism and antisemitism, its the non Jews that have a problem with the difference.

[TexasTiger 12,918]

1 minute ago, I_M4_AU said:

No, like most liberals he doesn’t like his government.  Most Jews can see the difference between Anti-Zionism and antisemitism, it’s the non Jews that have a problem with the difference.

Do most conservatives like their government?

[I_M4_AU 7,850]

1 minute ago, TexasTiger said:

Do most conservatives like their government?

Not 100%, but they don’t try to convince people it is alway wrong and should be dismantled.

[I_M4_AU 7,850]

5 hours ago, TexasTiger said:

This Holocaust survivor who was once a Zionist, disagrees. Give him a listen:

 

Does his opinion count when most detractors of the Jews do not see the difference?

 

The NYPD released the following message: "All uniformed members of the service are to perform duty in the uniform of the day - effective immediately and until further notice, all uniformed members of the service, in every rank, will perform duty in the uniform of the day and be prepared for deployment." Gov. Hochul is also commenting on potential violence, calling it a "personal choice" if parents want to remove their kids from school on Friday. "I understand the very human desire to protect your family and your kids. With that information going on, it's something everybody will individually have to decide."

Awful.

Is the *global day of Jihad* aimed at Israel or the Jewish people? Or is it to bring Israel to its knees by killing it’s people?